Only about 1-5% of the population identify as asexual, so let’s not pretend that the sexlessness in marriages is some biological mystery. The most likely reason women stop wanting sex isn’t some innate disinterest—it’s fucking exhaustion. Try acting as your spouse’s mother, caregiver, therapist, life planner, and housekeeper while also shouldering the majority of childcare, all while he contributes minimally (if at all), and see how ‘in the mood’ you feel. Funny how men who actually share the load don’t seem to have wives avoiding them like the plague.
A lot of women are dissatisfied in their marriages. A lot of men are too. But…I haven’t heard a lot of women say they are doing too many chores. In slightly wealthier relationships you have maids and nannies. Yet, those women cheat and/or are cold to their husbands just as much. And they, of all people, are not overworked. The fact is a lot of women have unrealistic expectations right now. Men don’t live up to their expectations and as a result they grow cold.
And women, less now I think, but 20-30 years ago it was really common, meet in ‘support’ groups where women are encouraged to be upset.
However….another big factor, especially with Liberal women, is they are medicated. Massively hormonally disrupted.
I have a counseling practice that is 80% women. I have spoken to a ton of women, as in 1000s. I can’t recall any woman (maybe a few) saying this was a big issue. I realize there have been 10s of 1000s of articles on this. But it isn’t the biggest issue from my experience. Money and sex are the big issues. And guys wanting too much sex is surprisingly less than you would think. This is my personal experience seeing a few thousand women. Unless you have a counseling practice I doubt you have spoken in depth to as many women as I have.
No. Ask any marriage counselor what the problems are. Sex and money.
I am a landlord and have been for decades. Women are not more tidy than men. Maybe generally yes. And there are more neat freak women than men. From observation. But the total slobs? Women - many times more. Ask any landlord.
Women also are depressed a lot more than men. Saps one's motivation to do anything.
It could very well be that "liberals" are a lot more depressed at the state of the world these days. Also, conservatives have decided en masse to no longer believe in science, so "liberals" might be more convinced that a pill could help their depression.
Actually, conservatives don't know enough to be depressed right now. Their man is back in office! So, while Dump is busy immiserating the entire planet, they take any interim inconveniences in stride, certain that things are finally going the way their god wants things to go, and that Trump will eventually make them financially comfortable. Plus, THEY are "pwning the libs!" and that's all some of them need.
Liberal women have been shown to have higher incidences of mental problems. That’s why they tend to be more medicated. I’m somewhat surprised that you didn’t know this. But, of course, that little bit of knowledge goes against your position.
Methinks conservative women also have problems. They are just shoved way, way, way, wayyyy down under religious conformity and the idea that Just Doing What We Are Told will solve all.
I mean, at least they have social approval. Right?
Kind of a trite reply. You may be right. I’m quoting published numbers, etc. somehow, you feel compelled to disparage conservative women with implications of dogma, patriarchy, , stereotypes. Just forget I said anything. Numbers are legit. They showed both liberal and conservative leaning persons in the study. This is the reason I so dislike trying to have an exchange of. Ideas with leftist feminists.
Why would a liberal be more likely to be medicated? Because they are nore likely to trust the medical industry??? A lot of rightoids I know don’t trust doctors at all.
I mean that too, but I think it’s both. I just thought the first one would be an easier pill to swallow because it doesn’t require any statistics (and statistics can be manipulated, so statistics don’t mean very much unless you explain the methodology, and that would take too long). You can sort of just tell that rightoids often wouldn’t take drugs from doctors by talking to them and knowing their opinions.
Everything can be manipulated. The world only accepts what it wants to believe. Jesus could come down and say”brethren, the sun shall rise in the East” and a significant segment of the population would argue. I’ve heard every lame argument trying to disprove my statements about liberal women having more mental issues than the population. Fuck it.
Saying “I haven’t heard a lot of women say they are doing too many chores” is like standing in the rain and insisting the weather’s fine because you personally don’t feel wet. Women have been shouting about the unequal division of labor for decades—from the second wave through to every millennial burnout blog post and TikTok explainer on emotional labor. If you’re not hearing it, maybe you’ve got selective hearing tuned to “mute” when women speak.
And wealth doesn’t cancel out patriarchy. So households with wealth should have wives that just radiate gratitude and sexual availability at all times? Having help at home doesn’t fix emotional neglect, the mental load, or being married to a man who thinks “support” means not actively making her life harder.
Women have unrealistic expectations? You mean expecting a partner who communicates, pulls his weight, and treats you like an equal? God forbid women want something more than being a bangmaid with a day planner.
Then you toss in a bonus serving of “liberal women are all on meds”—as if mental health struggles are the problem, not the crushing load of living in a society where women are expected to smile while they bleed, nurse, work, clean, and absorb their husband’s emotional constipation. Women are not broken. We’re exhausted. And no amount of Lexapro is going to make a woman happy in a marriage where her needs are seen as hysterical inconveniences.
But go off, bro. You’ve diagnosed modern womanhood without ever having to live it.
People often drag up patriarchy. It does exist, and is necessary for things to work. I would imagine your position on men is “interesting.” Mainly, y’all bitch about things,and rarely solve problems. Our country runs because men work all of the dangerous, menial jobs. Call a woman plumber, landscaper, etc. plus, your seething dissatisfaction with the way things are floats just under the surface. I would rather be intimate with a tree stump than a woman with your outlook on life.
🤮 It’s a great thing I am in no way, shape, or form available to you. Frankly, I’d pity any woman who was. If the patriarchy is ‘necessary,’ it’s only for propping up fragile egos like yours. You don’t solve problems. You just project your insecurities onto women who refuse to coddle you. As for the tree stump, it sounds about your level. It’s quiet, doesn’t challenge you, and won’t call out your outdated nonsense.
What a crock of hair on fire shit. You’re exhausted…. Really. Chin up, bucco. This argument is so stale. But, it’s all you got, so beat that drum. Just do some research on more women being nuts than men. Infer what you want. This is a pointless haggle by a bunch of bitter matrons who can do fine by themselves. Good. Good luck. You’re going to need it
Let me make something crystal clear, you don’t get to tell me how I feel. That’s classic patriarchal bullshit. Policing women’s emotions, mocking exhaustion, and waving off legitimate critique as “hysteria” or “hair on fire shit” is tired, cowardly, and transparently misogynistic.
You’re not clever. You’re condescending, and frankly, pathetic.
Calling women “nuts” and “bitter matrons” because we’ve opted out of playing emotional janitor for emotionally stunted men like you doesn’t prove your point, it proves mine.
You’re not mad because the argument is stale. You’re mad because it’s still true 😂
Women can do fine by ourselves. That’s what terrifies you. We don’t need men who sulk when they’re not the center of the universe. We don’t need lectures from insecure bullies clinging to outdated dominance fantasies. And I sure as hell don’t need your permission to speak the truth.
Maybe you should be asking why there’s a male loneliness epidemic, why more men commit suicide and why men struggle to form healthy relationships. Channel your anger into something productive and help your brothers.
Oh, honey, why don’t you try juggling a full-time job, unpaid domestic labor, and societal expectations, all while being told to smile more. If an economic collapse comes women will still be the ones holding it all together, just like they always have. Women have been turning pennies into meals for generations. Countless mothers plan meals, clip coupons, and stretch every dollar to keep their families fed and healthy. So, if harder times come knocking, don’t worry about us—we’ve been ready. Maybe instead of condescending hypotheticals, you should thank the women who keep the world running.
What do you mean 'unpaid domestic labor'? Someone should pay you for keeping your house clean and buying groceries? What if you live alone? Is anything you don't love to do counted as 'unpaid labor'? This is a nonsensical way to look at the world.
Until, of course, the person who did all that unpaid work gets too old and sick to work anymore, and—surprise!! She never had a job, so no Social Security for her! What’s she supposed to live on?? Or—there’s a divorce. Now she can’t command much of a salary, she has no resume. Yet there he is in divorce court saying he shouldn’t have to pay alimony, because she “sat at home on his dime and did nothing.” Um … who raised the kids? Who birthed the kids? Who cooked the meals and kept house and kept everything running while he went to work?? If these things are worth no money, then the people who do them are deemed to deserve poverty, and that’s not right.
I got a question. How would you feel if the husband didn’t want his wife to work and wanted her to do the other jobs (other than smiling more). I agree that it’s unreasonable for women to do both and it’s destroying the childhood of children (along with school today being taught to make us hate learning). But someone still has to do the childcare and housework. Do you have a solution in mind?
My point is that women deserve to feel seen and heard and have their important needs met just as much as men. Why should a woman who is mentally and physically drained and isn’t in the mood herself, acquiesce to a man’s needs and have sex, when he is not interested in meeting hers?
My late husband was a wonderful person and other than being stuck with the chores, I was very happy. I wasn't willing to divorce him over it, and really, unless you are, you have no sway. And I wasn't going to trash the marriage retaliating.
What I did was put myself on a schedule where I did a little bit every night, so I didn't spend every day off catching up on chores. The place never was entirely up to my specs, but it was livable, things got done, and I wasn't angry and resentful all the time.
What eventually happened was, my husband got diagnosed with brain cancer. When you're watching a guy who can barely stand up nearly fall over trying to wipe pee off the toilet rim because you've been bitching about it for seven years ... it really breaks your heart.
“My point is that women deserve to feel seen and heard and have their important needs met just as much as men.”
And you can find about ten million other articles right here on this very platform, not to mention about ten billion elsewhere, in which women talk about not being seen or heard or otherwise endlessly complain about men and their their relationships with them. This post is about a problem that disproportionately affects men. Hijacking the comments to try to steer the discussion to women’s problems is extremely tacky, not to mention entirely redundant given the sheer volume of articles about women’s complaints that exist. There is room on the internet for people to occasionally talk about things that make men unhappy, even if you’d rather they didn’t.
The tacky part was not the question itself, it was the implicit demand that the subject be changed to that question. The topic of there being no socially acceptable actions to take for the unhappy party in a sexless marriage — which is usually, albeit not always, the man — is not only very interesting, but rarely discussed.
By contrast, articles consisting of women’s complaints about men and their needs not being met in relationships are probably the most common thing on the internet besides porn.
So in this context, the reflexive “Well what about the women? Why aren’t you talking about what *I* want you to talk about? I’m sure it’s the men’s fault anyway” subject change just feels like an attempt to snuff out discussion of a worthy yet relatively rarely-addressed topic and replace it with one that’s commonly and comprehensively covered elsewhere.
"Hijacking the comments to try to steer the discussion to women’s problems is extremely tacky, not to mention entirely redundant given the sheer volume of articles about women’s complaints that exist."
If you go anywhere on the internet that isn't explicitly right-wing, this will happen every single time somebody writes about a problem men have. Probably better to focus on the more on-topic discussions, but it's hard to not get sucked into it...
This phenomenon is making a lot of men decide to go places that ARE explicitly right-wing, so somebody will actually listen to them for 20 minutes, even if they are virtually guaranteed to give horrible advice and a twisted call to action.
You really said, “Women talk about this elsewhere, so let’s not do it here,” as if justice and equity are some kind of zero-sum game where men can only be heard in absolute silence from the other half of the population.
Let me make this simple for you, since nuance seems to be in short supply: pointing out why women in sexless marriages might not be interested in sex isn’t “hijacking” the conversation — it’s contextualizing it. You want to talk about male dissatisfaction in marriage? Great. But pretending that it exists in a vacuum where women are just mysteriously frigid and unfair is intellectually lazy and emotionally dishonest.
Also, the sheer entitlement of saying there are “too many” articles about women’s experiences is hilarious. You know why that is? Because for centuries, everything else has been written by, for, and about men. The second women raise their voices en masse, suddenly we’re “complaining” and taking up too much space. God forbid we suggest that maybe, just maybe, female pleasure and wellbeing should matter as much as male desire.
This isn’t about silencing men. It’s about dismantling a system where male unhappiness is treated as a crisis, and female exhaustion is treated as an inconvenience. You want your needs met? Start by respecting your partner’s humanity. Start by not expecting emotional labor and domestic service on tap while demanding access to her body like it’s part of the goddamn cable package.
Women aren’t the problem here. Entitlement is. And judging by your comment, there’s still plenty of that to go around.
The fact is that there ARE reasons OTHER than getting stuck with all the domestic labor, being tired, and these sorts of usual issues that sex dies in a marriage.
There are. There really, really are!! ALTHOUGH, I will say, having been through the doing-80-percent-of-the-housework-while-having-all-this-extra-"thin"-work-to-do-because-I'M-the-fat-one-AND-having-all-the-elder-care-too that WHEN this is the reason, AND it IS the reason an awful, AWFUL lot of the time ...
I can also say BECAUSE I've run a pub on infidelity for over five years AND I've done tons of research ...
There ARE other things that kill a woman's sex drive EVEN WHEN the aforementioned house-and-chore imbalance is somehow NOT a factor.
And I suppose these cases were in fact more what I was thinking of when I wrote the piece.
Which takes nothing away from the fact that donating all your free time to everyone else so they get to have it whilst you are washing dishes, doing laundry, vacuuming, and cooking sure ain't sexy.
And the other thing is that now we get into this polarized thing where one person says, "Why do I have to care about YOUR needs when you don't care about MY needs?" and the OTHER person says, "Why do I have to care about YOUR needs when you don't care about MY needs?" and now we just have two angry people who aren't giving a living shit about each other and USING THAT to justify being two angry people who aren't giving a living shit about each other.
And the only way around THAT is, it's your job to care. Period. So shut up and CARE.
And if the other person STILL doesn't meet you halfway, wise up and get the fuck out.
What men do does not count to women as they don’t think it is important but through history men provided resources and protection in ways women don’t and refuse to acknowledge. Most men simply shut up and do their jobs. They used to say the same about lion prides: the males were lazy and useless but when the pride loses its male, the pride disappears, cubs all killed and territory cancelled
There is SOME merit to that. Although, I will say, men get a lot of pride and needs met by grinding away at that job, job, job they complain about. Whereas, after a while, picking up the same damn laundry and dusting the same damn furniture and vacuuming the carpet yet AGAIN does not give most people any sort of self-worth. It's the kind of job people crap on. Yes, we do pay for this kind of work in society, but it's also known as "lazy people's work." The people who do it--janitors, elder care workers, Target and Wal-Mart employees--are the lowest caste of workers in this country, people whom everyone thinks don't deserve a living wage because they are "lazy" and "should better themselves."
This is the same kind of work that when it's time to divorce, the husband discounts, saying things like, "*I* brought home the bacon X number of years while she did 'nothing.' So, I deserve to keep all the money and leave her with nothing. (Even though she had no career for X number of years because she was keeping 'my' house and raising 'my' kids.)"
Women KNOW that keeping up a home is devalued by society and not considered "real" work. The same as fast food is devalued by society and not considered "real" work. Yet, if you have done either one, you KNOW how boring, tedious, and difficult either is, and that it most certainly IS REAL WORK.
So, there IS a difference between the work men traditionally have done and the work women traditionally have done. Especially when "men's" jobs around the home tend to be things that only need doing once every week or two or once every few months (mowing the lawn, changing the oil in the family car/s.) While the work WOMEN traditionally have done generally means hours and hours of work every week THEY have to do that no one else has to do.
(On top of all the shit she has to do to attempt to achieve the all-important societal command/demand: STAY THIN.)
Dear god, the irony. How tf are Western women 'exhausted' again? This 'mental/emotional' load crap is a cult. You're not half the victim you need to be.
If they both keep withdrawing (not listening and responding to the others needs) and both feel hurt (their own needs not being heard and responded to), then it's only going one way - towards ending the relationship. They both have a responsibility to reach out, listen, communicate how they feel & and what they need and work to meet the other's needs.
Also known as “I have been trying for years! It’s been so hard waiting for them to give me what I really need so they can be worthy of me giving them what they want”
Why are you fitting the sexless marriage phenomenon solely in one box? Why are lack of emotional and domestic labor by husband the only possible reasons for disinterest in sex to you?
My opinion: there can be many reasons for a sexless marriage. Chores, too tired, etc. But how about another possibility. Women have biological clocks so they might pick a partner when time is getting late, have their kids and then wake up one day and are not happy with their choice. They say women overwhelmingly initiate divorce. Could regret with their choice of partner be a reason for a sexless marriage and eventual divorce?
Yes, this was me. My ex-husband changed his attitude to me once our children were born. Looking back, I believe it was a, "I've got you now; you can't leave as you have our children to consider". He was a high earner, and I didn't want our children to grow up in a relatively impoverished environment as I had done.
I kept thinking that it was just a rough patch that we were going through. Then after about 15 years, I knew that it was never going to get better.
He was on his second marriage with me. In his first marriage, he deliberately took a low paid job after his divorce to minimise his childcare payments. This should have been a red flag to me, but I was younger, naive and my biological clock was ticking away.
The tragic/fascinating thing is that on average husbands now do significantly more (around triple) around the house and with their kids, catching up to where women were a few decades ago. The trouble is that mothers on average are doing even more (roughly double). It's a domestic arms race, and like all arms races, everyone loses.
Most relationship and sex therapists say that the problems in the bedroom start outside the bedroom….
Both men and women have sexual and touch needs…it also strikes me as normal to have ebs and flows and to need to rediscover desire.
For example 1)infertility kills desire, but it can come back 2) sudden hormone changes kills desire
3) low self esteem kills desire
Being exhausted alone doesn’t kill desire…feeling like you are shouldering all the responsibility kills desire…remember when you met and couldn’t get your hands off each other? You would stay up late well past bedtime to have sexy time and yes be tired the next day and yes you can’t do that every night for years, but you know…regularly you can.
I am finding more and more often a loss of libido is a sign of hormone imbalance…a medical issue that for too long has been ignored and women blamed themselves.
My wife is one of the 1-5%, she's never felt any sexual desire or attraction to me or anyone else - ever. No self exploration, no masturbation until she was in her 40s and discovered the bullet vibrator, then just quick and done. She never wants to talk about sex.
I don't blame her for marrying me, we grew up in an era of sex just being for the husband, so she thought she was normal. There was never any mention of asexuality back then.
She is starting to understand my needs, mostly based on this podcast, for sexual intimacy, but she just can't engage that way. Hence the discussions around opening our relationship.
Asexuality isn't wrong of course, it's just how she's made, but if we'd known and understood each other, then we wouldn't have got married.
Now we have built a good life, family and home together (and been sexless for many years), so Dr Psych Mom's ideas for alternatives is a really helpful discussion starter:
Yes, exactly! Having an affair is great, at the start, but it’s really hard to avoid it becoming incredibly painful for one of you, sooner or later, and it’s impossible to predict who’s going to be the one to get too attached, too greedy. If you’re the cheating spouse you might get “lucky” a few times and be the one who breaks it off, but that’ll just encourage you to keep trying until you meet your nemesis!
Indeed! I mean, I avoided mentioning the gender because presumably the same danger awaits unfaithful women. But yes, it’s hard being the Other Woman, and I’m sorry.
If your kids are grown (b) is nothing to fear. Not to my mind. She has zero sex drive. It is a part of most relationships. If she won’t partake then to my thinking it is silly to stay together. Unless you have kids. In which case do what you have to do until the kids are 18. But don’t hate her over this. She is who she is and she has the right to be that. You have the right to say ‘thanks, but that doesn’t work for me’.
Until the kids see their mother crying and blaming you and decide never to speak to you again. When your whole family will ostracize you if you get a divorce … it takes a brave person to get a divorce.
Bullshit. I carried the entire load for 23 years in a loveless sexless marriage. Stop acting as if all women are somehow saints who are exhausted because of men who don't contribute. Its a total lie. Most men, are actually pretty good guys.
I hear this so often, and no offense, but a lot of the time it’s myopic and one-sided, and informed nearly entirely by female perspectives. I don’t know your circumstances but thought i’d mention that.
Some things to consider
1) are your standards for “the load” different from his? I find women tend to discount work outside the home and financial provision while having far higher domestic standards than men. Many of us would happily live in a cave needing minimal cleaning/maintenance left to our own devices. It is my experience most men become increasingly domesticated over the course of a marriage to suit their wives and these concessions are often wholly discounted.
2) Have you agreed upon what “the load” looks like and how its split up or have you just traded demands with each other?
3) what is he providing in the relationship/household you are overlooking? If its nothing, then why are you still together?
4) do you have psychological needs for acts of his devotion yet deny him psychological needs for acts of your intimacy?
5) If he is so worthless as to deserve your continual sexual/emotional rejection, why are you still together?
Pretty sure he's referring to Elise, honestly. I'm assuming you have a fairly large audience of entitled/feminist women (they're essentially synonymous), and they love the woman since she's excusing what amounts to terrible behaviour from most women.
Using vomit emojis in the comments and shaming random guys is pretty pathetic, really -- but hey, I'm just a tourist here. Someone I subscribe to restacked this article and I found myself reading it.
For what it's worth, I loved it. Thought you summarized matters for men relating to marriage very well indeed. Sure, there are plenty of men who are not pulling their weight in marriages -- and women have every right to deny those men sex -- but I suspect in the majority of cases it's just Western women being Western women, really.
My best friend back home is in exactly the kind of situation you describe. He's been taking care of the kids an insane amount, doing all the handy work, at least half of the housework, cooking ALL the meals (he's an ex-chef), going to the gym in the hopes that she'll notice, and working like a dog.
The result? She shuts down his every advance. He was once the man that every girl wanted, now I'm fairly certain he's addicted to porn because he has lost all hopes in her ever putting out. Why does he stay? For the kids, of course. Most men who put up with these circumstances do, sadly.
And I've said to him point blank that I wouldn't tolerate it. But then, most men do. Most.
edit: I posted this comment in the wrong place. This was a response to guy criticizing me for saying “I think” instead of being like him and saying “I know”. I’d delete it, but I want to alert the people who responded to my comment that it was a mistake.
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(original comment)
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I said “think” as a way to say “you know, I agree with you, but I think you’re missing something, lemme share it”. It would feel presumptuous to say, “I agree with you, but you’re missing something and I can’t be wrong”.
Being matter of fact in this context feels impolite, but that might just be the Canadian in me speaking. Either way, it does not produce productive conversation, and if I’m not doing that, why am I commenting?
Also, if you won’t give me the source I have no idea what you’re talking about. There are… a lot of studies on this topic. I don’t need it though. I’m satisfied with Ubersoy’s take in his article “Why is the left mentally ill”.
Mmmkay. Yet the so-called “right” can support the abolition of the separation of church and state, attempt to make the entire country a Christain theocracy, attempt to take voting rights away from women, take down half the government and start a tariff war, cut SNAP and Medicaid to give the very very wealthy yet ANOTHER tax break, and elect a rapist and felon president twice while believing, bizarrely, that Hillary Clinton and other leading Democrats were sacrificing children and drinking their blood in the basement of an Arlington PIZZA PARLOR … and WE’RE the ones who are mentally ill??
Sorry, I was responding to the wrong comment. I can see why this would be confusing. Someone criticized me for saying “I think” before saying something he agreed with.
That said, even if you are right about everything you said, I stand by lefties being more likely to be mentally ill. Being wrong about facts is not that strong of a sign of mental illness. You’re confusing correctness for mental health. Seemingly because you associate correctness with morality. Proving rightoids are wrong doesn’t prove they are mentally ill, so that’s not the way to go about the conversation. You need to prove that rightoids have something leftoids don’t that correlates with mental illness.
Dare I say it’s probably healthier for an individual to have mythos surrounding the unknown than not to, even if in many cases it’s a bit absurd, like sea monsters, bigfoot, dwarves, the wealthy drinking infant blood, elves, etc. Most ideas that don’t make you paranoid will help by giving you a coherent world view to help you understand the unknown, albeit in an incorrect way. It often describes a symbolic truth. Sometimes this symbolic truth is basically literally true, like with the sea monsters. The idea of “sea monsters” sounds sort if stupid, but when you think about it, we’ve proven that these monsters exist, we’ve just mapped out and classified them (eg, whales, colossal squid, sharks, etc).
My point is, letting oneself be wrong in the same was as people around them gives them a coherent world view, and this is often healthy.
I mean, would you say an uneducated rednecker is more likely to be mentally ill than an educated city man? I’d imagine not, and that proves that being unlearned is not correlated with mental illness, but often it’s the other way around.
Personally I go about this topic by citing studies, despite the uncertainty that comes with them. It matches up with my experiences so I’m inclined to believe it. If you have something else, even non-study based, I’d check it out (unless it’s too long)
Could it also be that conservatives are less likely to trust science, to believe in “all that mental health and headshrinker stuff,” and also more likely to lean on people to conform such that conservatives who experience mental health symptoms are more likely to try to tough it out, to deny that anything could actually be wrong with them, to try to handle it with their pastor or by prayer than to pursue mental health treatment, or to believe that any mental-illness-inducing situation such as spousal abuse is just ordained by God as The Way Things Are Supposed To Be rather than seeking mental health services? Thus we have a population that self-selects themselves out of mental health treatment?
Ignoring the religious stuff I think you’re right. I mean, I wouldn’t go to a doctor for mental illness unless it was ruining my life—on second thought I actually take back what I said about the study. It doesn’t say much.
Even thought the stats say little, which I am inclined to believe as the difference of mental illness in lefties and rightists has increased in the studies over the years, in my mind pointing to politics having an influence. I still have no reason to believe that leftists aren’t more mentally ill though and it intuitively makes sense.
Saying “being matter of fact feels impolite” may seem benign, even self-aware, but when directed at a woman speaking directly and confidently, it becomes part of a larger, gendered pattern.
Men are rarely told to cushion their ideas in politeness to make them more palatable. When they’re assertive, they’re seen as confident. When women are matter of fact, we’re framed as impolite, combative, or unproductive. That double standard is the patriarchy at work. Expecting women to prioritize social ease over clarity is how uncomfortable truths get softened—and dismissed.
Framing your disagreement as “I think you’re missing something” wrapped in performative politeness doesn’t make it less critical, it just disguises the condescension. You’re not actually offering a respectful dialogue if you follow up by citing an article titled “Why is the left mentally ill.” That isn’t discourse. That’s a provocation hiding behind a polite smile.
Anyway women don’t need to make truths sound sweet to be worthy of being heard. And they definitely don’t owe politeness when what’s actually being asked is submission.
Maybe, but I was talking to a man who was criticizing me for not being matter of factly. Did I respond to the wrong comment? If so I’m sorry about that.
edit: Ohh, now I remember. I thought substack deleted this comment earlier, but I suppose it just went in the weong place.
It’s completely impossible for most women to be objective about the respective levels of effort that they and their spouse put into the marriage. Most likely you just hate your husband and there’s nothing he can do to fix that and/or you’re just an inherently miserable person.
If a man ignores emotional and domestic labor, most women will experience reduced desire. Working full-time plus The Second Shift at home makes for exhaustion at bedtime. Let's ask WHY so many women don't want sex with their husbands. Maybe he's not very satisfying. The average sex act lasts less than 10 minutes. Maybe, like my ex, he likes to make it hurt.
Comparing a loss of desire to being an abuser erases the thousands of women KILLED each year by intimate partners.
Well, been in that situation (not the one where the guy made sure sex hurt), but the rest of it, yeah. I did not realize how much sexual warmup women actually need. I just thought something was wrong with me. WHY?? That's what's in the culture, and that's what the men I was with thought and said. If I had known better, we could have talked about it and I could have asked for better. Instead, I tried to confine sex to Sundays, when we mostly stayed in and laid around and cuddled and watched movies all day, and ...SURPRISE!! Somehow I found myself in the mood!! That didn't mean something was wrong with me, it's just how it IS.
“The average sex act lasts less than 10 minutes”. And yet even this is too much to ask? I quick 3 minute handsy in the morning a couple times a week before getting out of bed, combined with real intimacy a couple times a week and you’ve made your man feel like a king who’ll be as loyal as a dog, (less time than you’ll spend painting your toenails.)
If he’s hurting you intentionally you’ve got some serious abuse issues to work through, don’t conflate the desire for loving sex with what’s clearly an abuse situation.
If it's less than ten minutes, yeah, it IS too much to ask.
The reason? The number of women who can orgasm in that tiny amount of time, much less find the encounter enjoyable at all, is miniscule.
Women's bodies aren't made to SPRING into arousal and orgasm bang-bang-bang in nothing flat like men's are. I can count the number of times that's EVER happened to me on one hand. And I'm 57.
If that's all the time a man believes sex should take and that's all there is to it for him, HE'S A LOUSY LOVER. That's when sex hurts--she's not even aroused. Worse, she feels like she's some sort of receptacle for him to "empty" himself into and then she feels tossed aside like a piece of garbage.
Women need to feel like you actually give a shit in order to want to have sex with you. So there's where my complaining poster has a point. Men who leave the woman with all the chores just because she's the one without a penis, and then pump-'em-and-dump-in-them and expect her to be satisfied with being treated like that?? They don't give a living shit about that woman, and she knows it.
I’m a big believer in orgasms. For the woman. And many more than one. And any sex that lasts 10 min or less is just masturbation. At best. If a man wants to feel like a REAL king, he should learn how to make love for hours, not minutes. All woman can go for hours. It’s sad that hardly any men can. If you get even part way there, you won’t have to ask for sex. You’ll get more than you know whatever to do with.
Agreed. I never understood these people who get home from a stressful day physiologically ready to go and are done in ten minutes. And there’s something wrong with you if you can’t do that, plus they feel put out having to “deal” with you and your stupid slow body.
This is ridiculous. Millions of couples with kids get sex done in 20 minutes and both partners taken care of. The female orgasm is not some mysterious thing that needs 2 weeks of foreplay to achieve.
Im sorry but we don’t my need to orgasm every time we are intimate with our husbands. I almost never do despite his insistent attempts. You know why? Because we don’t really, really need it for the sex to still be enjoyable. I get very aroused by my husband’s arousal. Most of the time thats enough for me because the effort towards orgasming just isn’t often worth it to me. This western insistence on women always orgasming during sex puts a lot of pressure on women, ironically. Why do you always need to get off to feel that you’ve had good sex? Men do, women don’t. We don’t get blue balls. We can be fine enjoying the intimacy and the pleasure our husbands derive from it.
We accept less because we were taught to be pleasing. We were brainwashed to believe that our greatest happiness is securing the happiness of others.
The younger generation isn’t buying it, and I’m grateful. They are showing us that sex can be better - IS better according to research - in relationships where intimacy isn’t patriarchal by default, but more egalitarian in and out of the bedroom.
Patriarchy makes women mute and men deaf. A woman can’t speak up about chores, mental load, or emotional labor without forfeiting her badge of infinite self-sacrifice. And men can’t listen to a women asking for what she needs without hearing criticism or complaining. And it condemns both of them to bad sex
Yes. IMO, once one of you is keeping a scoreboard, the relationship is suffering. IDK if doing chores fixes anything, but some conversations are definitely called for.
Like I said, if you have reached the point of feeling things are unfair, it is time for some conversations to be had. If you have had those conversations and things still are unfair, then I would ask you why you would want to remain in such an unfair arrangement. It is time for something else to be done
My apologies. I can’t help mansplaining. I need to lose some weight as well. And have for decades. It’s hard. And it’s not like I’ve got success stories to share.
But the GLP-1 drugs are a new thing and I’ve seen lots of DC folks losing lots of weight. My daughter and son-in-law are both in the “need to loose over 100 lbs” category. Neither have had luck with the diet/ exercise process. But they are seeing GLP improvement. I just know how crappy extra weight makes me feel, and I was only writing from a care perspective. Good luck on your journey
Thing is, I know how to lose weight. If I am 50-75% raw, eat 1500-1700 calories a day, and exercise every other day, I will lose weight.
Trouble is, being 50-75% raw is a LOT of work. I could do it while working part time but when my husband passed away, I had to go back to full time work. And in the past five years I have never gotten injured easier or stayed injured longer. So exercise hasn’t been a thing. I’m also older and don’t have the energy I used to have. Even five years ago I would stress all day long at work and then drive 45 minutes somewhere with well-lit sidewalks, jog three miles, go to my favorite place that closed in the pandemic and have a healthy salad, then rush home, shower and shampoo, go to bed and get up and do it all over again, and now I have NO idea how I DID that. I get home from work and I’m tired. I don’t want to spend all this time running down the road anymore. I’m almost sixty years old. You spend all this time working and working and working and working … and, of course, you have nothing to show for it. This IS America, after all. I’ve been stressing and stressing my whole life and I’m about ready to stop.
I agree with changing energy output. I used to sleep only 4 to 5 hours a night work 60hrs a week in a lab and IT and run a farm. When I passed 7 decades I found 6 to 7 hours of sleep is needed. And 60hrs a week? No way. But I can still out labor young men 1/3 my age. Thank goodness for that.
This pretty strong. I am not sure I am brave or confident or cruel enough to share this with my "wife".
I've listened to the podcast, which is similarly blunt, and it rings true, especially my low self esteem in my relational, physical, sexual and romantic attractiveness, leading to complicity. Asking for my "needs" to be met, feels selfish to the point of abuse.
On the open marriage question - maybe you guys would be the rare couple where it would work. You are being open and you have “done the work”. So maybe maybe it might work. The huge risk is that if you start having sex with someone else you will fall in love with them and maybe they will fall in love with you. And if you think your marriage has problems now, wait until you have that problem, oh boy. If you are going to do it I would recommend a prostitute and not talking to her or being intimate or emotional. That will be unsatisfying but you really need to keep that boundary or you will imperil your marriage.
Yeah yeah yeah, the marriage, the marriage, the marriage. Nobody thinks about the mistress who falls in love and gets used and left. She is just the whore who got what she deserved.
*I* was willing to prioritize the marriage he already had, IF I had looked at the reports and seen someone who was willing to do her goddamned work. If she sounded like someone who really had concern about why he was so upset, instead of blaming everything on him, acting like she was owed everything, and running around telling everyone else he was crazy, I was prepared to just bow out and hope they saved their marriage. Instead, she insisted on counseling and then "sort of slept through it" and "acted like she didn't really want to be there." and guess what?? He STILL stayed. Okay ... you get what you pay for. A wife like this, I have NO sympathy for. If it had been my husband, the first thing I would have wanted to know was why he was so unhappy and what I could have done.
Are you implying that a sex worker might be susceptible to falling in love with me?
I understand the importance of your message, which comes from personal pain. I think you being willing to share in this context, for the benefit/warning to people like me, is brave and effective. I am just trying to understand whether you think there is an aspect of your message, that I am missing in our deliberations?
The special case you have is, as I understand it, your wife will have sex but it doesn't do anything for her and there's no connection? Finding either of those things with someone else is going to be emotionally risky. So, guard yourself and observe your feelings. Bail if anything starts to develop.
I think you definitely reduce the risk with a sex worker. And it’s much more likely that you fall in love with her (or feel like you are in love) rather than the opposite way around. But it can happen. You have explained that you miss the intimate connection and that may well develop. That sets off the thing in our brains called love. So I know it sounds harsh but the thing you are missing most is what you need to avoid developing with a sex worker. It’s horrible but I would say to try to keep it mechanical and clinical, impersonal. But then (unlike most men in this situation perhaps) you already have something better than that with your wife… I don’t know bud, such a difficult situation.
That was exactly our thinking too. I have now visited a happy ending masseuse a couple of times. I/we are currently evaluating how that went and what it means going forward. One of the good things that has come out of this, is that taking the "burden" of sex, off of us, has really helped our relationship, become deeper and more honest.
I do recall feeling burdened because it seemed I was expected to respond in a certain way or there was something wrong with me and I was disappointing him because my body didn’t respond like his body. Honesty is very important here.
We've had quite a bit of couples and individual therapy, over the last 3 years, instigated by me - I was fed up that our relationships was so guarded that we couldn't even talk about the complete lack of sex for the previous 15 years. The result of all that therapy and lots of research and face-to-face conversations - my wife is asexual, she has never experienced sexual attraction or desire for me or anyone else ever, it just doesn't compute for her.
Having been brought up in a very sex negative context and told that sex for for the man, she didn't realise there was anything "wrong" or "different" about her. Of course being asexual is not wrong, it is her orientation, she was devastated when she realised, she longed to be "normal". She expected sex with me to be meh and very one-sided. I also was brought up in a sex negative context, there was never any conversations about it at all. I didn't know what we had was wrong. She was happy to have sex to get pregnant, once she had the babies she wanted, that was it. I retreated into porn, due to shame and very low self esteem.
That all said, we have built a good life, family and home together. We are BFFs. Yes, we are co-parenting (of now adult children) room mates. We can never have sex. When I was young, my libido was mostly strong enough to manage, but when there's zero desire (apart from a wish for it to be over ASAP) coming back, whatever I do, before, during or after, it's not sex any more. However willing she is, I can no longer use her as a masturbatory aid.
Do we throw away what we have, just for sex? Is it wrong to explore getting that need met elsewhere? Is it doomed to failure? Are the only two options divorce (all all the damaging ripple affects of that) or enforced involuntary celibacy?
Well, lemme tell you from the perspective of the mistress, affairs are JUST FUCKING HORRIBLE. You meet the man of your dreams … and he’ll have sex with you but that’s it. The mistress falls in love and puts her whole life aside to be USED and dumped as soon as the wife and family get too uncomfortable. NOT a position I would advise for anyone.
100% agree. I've never been tempted by the idea of having an affair. I am also grateful that this has never been an issue I have had to consciously say "no" to.
That is a tough situation. Credit to you both for talking and going through the therapy. Credit to your wife for “going through the motions” of sex even though she is not into it. I am not personally convinced about asexuality or it being “an orientation”. It’s a social fashion but how real is it…? It is certainly a face saving excuse for all concerned. Not meaning to offend anyone, especially you or your wife.
An alternative explanation is birth control pills - these alter sexual attraction and often cause women to marry men who they are attracted to while on the pill but cease to be sexually attracted to after having children (adding to the general reduction in desire after having children).
My personal answer to your question is that you’re right, what you have is more important than sex, and you have both done what you can to make the best of it. It really sucks and I’m sorry for you both.
Believe us, that we have tried every other explanation and oddly I fully believe her, that this is not about me, she has never experienced any sexual desire or attraction to anyone ever. I realise that asexuality can be hard to understand and accept, although adding "none" to straight, gay, bi, doesn't seem that much of a stretch. The best analogy I can give, is that she was born deaf and whilst she understands the concept of sound (e.g. buzzing next to the skin), the concept of music, of making music, is so far outside her lived experience, that she cannot relate. She can intellectually understand that I might want to listen to and even make music, but can't relate to the idea.
I am not saying that no one uses "I'm asexual" as a face saving excuse, but it is not us.
The concept of me being with another woman sexually, holds no meaning for her other than intellectual curiosity - and yes we have really talked this through thoroughly. She understands enough to be worried about me leaving her, but that's the extent of it.
Falling in love with other partners is a very likely outcome when opening a marriage, but it doesn’t have to mean the end of that marriage. You can craft any kind of relationship structure that works for all involved— it’s hard work but the payoff can be transformative.
Trouble is, when somebody's married, the spouse ALWAYS comes first and the extra person is just that ... an extra, a propper-upper. As soon as someone's unhappy, the extra person gets dumped. They're really just being used, and pretty soon they're going to get tired of it.
Your perspective would be helpful as we explore this idea.
You've described how you fell in love with the man who was having an affair with you, which led to obvious deep heartbreak, when he didn't leave his wife. Do you think it is likely that this same dynamic would happen in an open relationship, however mutually consensual it was - i.e. is the "falling in love" bit likely to happen again, regardless of any intellectual agreement?
"Especially if you’re a man, once you have sex with an affair partner, she will most likely fall in love."
Perhaps read up on polyamory? The poly community has its issues, but they have spent a lot of time wrestling with these questions.
Trying to prevent yourself or the other person from falling in love is probably doomed to failure, but that doesn't mean it has to be the end of the marriage.
We've tried years of counselling and the result, was both realising that my wife is asexual. So I think you're generally correct advice, doesn't apply very well in our situation. Only I would be seeing other women for sex. I have been seeing a happy ending masseuse, with the full support and even blessing of my wife and it is going pretty well.
We decided to try the SW route, partly based on the stories in this Substack, of people falling in love with people they meet whilst having affairs or in open relationships. To be fair, it is still early days.
I have been with my girlfriend 12 years and menopause changed everything. Both 63 years old. We used to have sex, but now it’s painful for her especially since I’m very girthy. But regardless of that, she has no desire even though I offer cunnilingus and she literally can orgasm in about a minute. She just has zero interest even though she can still cum so easily. We love each other and get along fabulously and totally agree on everything including politics and diet(keto/carnivore). Just no sex now. I won’t abandon her because I love her. But it’s difficult because I am very athletic and virile. I ride mountain bikes and run hills. I want sex twice a day and I don’t have any health issues and get hard like a 20 year old, so it’s very difficult because sex is always on my mind. I masturbate morning and night but we all know it’s not the same. I’m afraid if a woman made an advance I wouldn’t say no. Now I understand why many men in history had younger women on the side. It’s a difficult conundrum.
It’s not that simple, because we do have a strong connection in many aspects including politics, diet, health, etc. And we have been through a lot together. She supported me in refusing vaccination and having to quit my job and sell my home to live in an RV because I was threatened with termination for not complying. Her family was also pushing her to get vaccinated or not see them. She has never had a vaccine. We stuck by each other and got through it. So it’s not just as simple as dumping someone because their sex drive tanked.
She has never given oral sex even once, even 10 years ago when she was still sexually active. She says she doesn’t like it. Even though I love giving it all the time and enjoy doing it immensely. She says she makes up for not giving oral sex, by cooking good meals. She was only interested in sex when we were able to have penetration. Now that it’s too painful she has zero interest in sex.
Well, you know, if it’s painful I can’t blame the woman. Had some of those days myself. Fortunately I had a doctor who knew what she was doing and some determination to still have a sex life.
I have never read anything like this. Yes, it’s me…that husband. That man looking and finding! Thanks to the women who believe in these men having worth and needing a universal value…to be touched.
I’ve seen this over and over again - from both sides.
Sex workers have told me about clients that just want a dinner out, someone to talk to, and someone to spend a night with before returning to their lives for another month.
Women who are treated poorly by husbands and don’t feel loved, seeking that connection elsewhere, being demonized as lesser.
At what point is it okay to ‘outsource’?
Because you’re right. The options seem to be “destroy you’re life and start over while people hate you for it” or “live your life and have people hate you for it”
So you took the “monk” route where you accept that you will be an effective eunuch for the rest of your life because your wife doesn’t want to show physical affection.
Thank you for addressing this difficult yet very common issue. The frequency of sex declines in most marriages for a variety of reasons but few couples are brave enough to squarely and kindly acknowledge this before it becomes a wall that grows higher over time. Monogamy is hard while the excitement and desire that initially pulls a couple together can mask a lack of real understanding of how to satisfy a partner, particularly one of a different gender.
Having frank discussions about sexual arousal and satisfaction can seem unromantic, even insulting despite how important it is. Men in particular can resent their partners’s efforts to explain her anatomy and needs, too often taking such things personally rather than constructively. Such reactions teach women that raising this topic is a fraught and difficult step to take and one that she may feel too exhausted or frustrated to bother with. Or she may have her own trauma or challenges that she lacks the understanding or resources to work on.
The onset of menopause (and andropause) usually brings fresh hurdles that many couples lack any process (and awareness) to acknowledge or effectively address. Our Western inhibitions and gender roles compound these challenges,unfortunately. I wish I better understood them myself when marrying in my 20’s. Love does not, I found much later, conquer all.
You got that right. Most people also do not understand that women’s bodies simply REQUIRE WARMUP. They consider it a fault of the woman that her body does not work like a man’s, and that SURE doesn’t help.
As the other woman who fell in love with a married man, I never felt more understood. I've been saying this for the better part of a year now. Thank you.
People can be in committed relationships and fall in love with another person, but we don't want to talk about that because it's uncomfortable. It's the ugly truth that no one wants to admit. There are a lot of reasons why women have affairs with married men, but instead of shaming them and calling them whores, perhaps we should call these women what they really are: human.
So if a man has poor hygiene, refuses to carry his share of the household responsibilities, and touches his wife in ways that she has repeatedly told him are invasive - and therefore she creates a boundary around physical intimacy until he starts respecting her and the relationship… It’s the woman’s fault if he cheats? Nope. Sorry, not buying it. It’s arguments like yours that keep women betraying themselves and their basic dignity in order to boost their man’s self-worth. Except it’s called SELF-worth, not wife-worth. If he loved himself, then he would be able to love his wife in ways that would let her feel connected - not disgusted.
A little common sense would be good, here. In three words, OF COURSE NOT.
I'm talking about the marriages where the husband is actually a decent guy. (They do exist.) I forgot that I have to spell out every single little possibility when I write. Sorry.
Marriages DO exist where distance grows between a couple who are, in actuality, perfectly decent, fine, kind people. Sex doesn't always stop for only one reason, and the only reason sex stops isn't that someone is a pig. There are a number of reasons this could be.
But, for pity's sake, I did not write this piece in order to assert that a wife can't say no if she discovers she's married a Neanderthal.
I don't know if nonsexual spouses HATE the person they're with, but they certainly do seem to expect a sort of parentlike caretaking. Especially the older they get and with kids gone. The other person is sort of there for their convenience to some people.
I don't know how else to describe someone who expects you to indulge their jealousy and need to control, while they're unable to even show you intimate physical pleasure every now and again.
It isn't all that simple. Fully 1/4 of the women in this society have been raped or sexually abused, sadly many of them as minors. We live in a society with an extreme double standard, where sex is celebrated for men but if she does it or wants it, she is a "slut." In the church, sex is described as sin, dirty, and ungodly ... but, ehhhh, not so much for men. Only women.
It's very difficult to come back from a past where you were raped or sexually abused, or told never to even experience sexual desire on pain of hell fire, and then on the wedding night you are supposed to become something out of a porn film.
While we're on that subject, pr0n does not depict foreplay AT ALL. It teaches that whatever a man wants should satisfy the woman and if it does not, something is wrong with HER.
Now add in menstrual cramps, fibroids, endometriosis, pregnancy, childbirth, nursing, and the fact that the woman STILL does the lion's share in the home despite also holding a full time job and is shamed if she does not have a body like J. Lo., and you can begin to see the problem.
I haven't even mentioned: perimenopause and menopause.
A woman does not have to hate you to not want to have sex with you, I promise. I am one and have been through most of this shit so I know.
Your first few paragraphs would be fine if we were discussing teens or otherwise traumatised very young adults or perhaps people with substantial mental disabilities. Not people who are granted adult privileges, nevermind people granted those and who also expect to control the sexuality of another person.
Furthermore, obviously a woman need not hate someone to not want to have sex with them, but to seek to control them and keep them from having sex with other people, while also not having rhe maturity to set themselves aside for 30 minutes every now and again, that's disgraceful!
Sorry, "waaah, waaah, waaah I'm just a hurt innocent child" does not work in combination with "I also expect to control whom another person has sex with." No matter how intensely the emotional blackmail is communicated.
I come from a home where my mother was sexually abused by my grandfather and remains incurably mentally ill to this day. She is 81.
To even THINK that someone raped, sexually abused, or poorly indoctrinated by the church is supposed to just easily shake all that off is not only grossly insensitive, but, according to ALL reports I've read by the mental health professionals who treat hundreds of these people, inaccurate.
It is not only psychopaths who lack empathy, but many other people, as you have pointed out. I regret to say that you appear to be one of them.
Everything isn't about YOU. A woman can be favorably disposed toward you or, yes, even love you, and still not be able to have sex with you. And I agree, the possessiveness that won't let go in that case is neither fair nor healthy, but, no, it is not about hating YOU.
There are a lot of resources about this and I have linked to some. Please avail yourself.
If you don’t have a decent sex life, you won’t have a decent marriage. Different people have different sex drives. Hopefully, you marry someone close to your own.
As a woman in a sexless marriage with a man, who is on his second sexless marriage, oh my god, thank you. There is literally no narrative for this except shame, and I’m so tired.
I don't believe in divorce, but I'm a guy and therefore absolutely believe that marriage is there for procreation and love, and that an integral part of that is sex.
I'd like to say if I had a partner who would withhold sex I'd endure and be indifferent, but I'd be lying. Likely I'd have an affair.
Hmm this is a really interesting post, and a thought-provoking essay. It's made me question, think and ponder about the nature of marriage, of men and women and how things should go in a marriage. Thanks for this. I really appreciate your excellent writing and your perspective on these things.
It's also given me ideas for a few of my stories on my substack and how to approach the idea of affairs, and the relationship between men and women. I've hesitated before about approaching this particular topic, but now think I absolutely must do so again (I've written one story years ago to this affect), I think I'll try again and approach it again in as nuanced a manner as possible.
Having an affair is a sucky solution, because then you are just USING someone’s body and then dumping them. All while promising you love them, you’re going to leave your wife, blahblahblahblahblah.
Sometimes it the husband. They are all into until they get ya hooked, and then out of no where… they cut you off. And I don’t mean for a couple of weeks. And if you say anything about they ask you to get that crap of your mind, accuse you of having a wondering mind.
Yes, some women actually want the sex. Desire the sex, and get gaslit, and told no.
Only about 1-5% of the population identify as asexual, so let’s not pretend that the sexlessness in marriages is some biological mystery. The most likely reason women stop wanting sex isn’t some innate disinterest—it’s fucking exhaustion. Try acting as your spouse’s mother, caregiver, therapist, life planner, and housekeeper while also shouldering the majority of childcare, all while he contributes minimally (if at all), and see how ‘in the mood’ you feel. Funny how men who actually share the load don’t seem to have wives avoiding them like the plague.
A lot of women are dissatisfied in their marriages. A lot of men are too. But…I haven’t heard a lot of women say they are doing too many chores. In slightly wealthier relationships you have maids and nannies. Yet, those women cheat and/or are cold to their husbands just as much. And they, of all people, are not overworked. The fact is a lot of women have unrealistic expectations right now. Men don’t live up to their expectations and as a result they grow cold.
And women, less now I think, but 20-30 years ago it was really common, meet in ‘support’ groups where women are encouraged to be upset.
However….another big factor, especially with Liberal women, is they are medicated. Massively hormonally disrupted.
Uh, what? Why would "liberals" take more medication than anyone else??
And most households aren't rich. Just saying.
Liberal white middle class women are heavily medicated. Other than end of life seniors that group is the most medicated of all sex/age/social class.
I have a counseling practice that is 80% women. I have spoken to a ton of women, as in 1000s. I can’t recall any woman (maybe a few) saying this was a big issue. I realize there have been 10s of 1000s of articles on this. But it isn’t the biggest issue from my experience. Money and sex are the big issues. And guys wanting too much sex is surprisingly less than you would think. This is my personal experience seeing a few thousand women. Unless you have a counseling practice I doubt you have spoken in depth to as many women as I have.
Observer bias?
No. Ask any marriage counselor what the problems are. Sex and money.
I am a landlord and have been for decades. Women are not more tidy than men. Maybe generally yes. And there are more neat freak women than men. From observation. But the total slobs? Women - many times more. Ask any landlord.
Women also are depressed a lot more than men. Saps one's motivation to do anything.
It could very well be that "liberals" are a lot more depressed at the state of the world these days. Also, conservatives have decided en masse to no longer believe in science, so "liberals" might be more convinced that a pill could help their depression.
Actually, conservatives don't know enough to be depressed right now. Their man is back in office! So, while Dump is busy immiserating the entire planet, they take any interim inconveniences in stride, certain that things are finally going the way their god wants things to go, and that Trump will eventually make them financially comfortable. Plus, THEY are "pwning the libs!" and that's all some of them need.
So, the studies are wrong. 😑
Liberal women have been shown to have higher incidences of mental problems. That’s why they tend to be more medicated. I’m somewhat surprised that you didn’t know this. But, of course, that little bit of knowledge goes against your position.
Because liberal women have higher incidences of mental problems.please don’t kill the messenger
And you would be a conservative, no doubt.
Methinks conservative women also have problems. They are just shoved way, way, way, wayyyy down under religious conformity and the idea that Just Doing What We Are Told will solve all.
I mean, at least they have social approval. Right?
What a silly, childish thing to say. Methinks you have a problem…. I’ve got better things to do than debate anal, frustrated matrons. Bye
Kind of a trite reply. You may be right. I’m quoting published numbers, etc. somehow, you feel compelled to disparage conservative women with implications of dogma, patriarchy, , stereotypes. Just forget I said anything. Numbers are legit. They showed both liberal and conservative leaning persons in the study. This is the reason I so dislike trying to have an exchange of. Ideas with leftist feminists.
Why would a liberal be more likely to be medicated? Because they are nore likely to trust the medical industry??? A lot of rightoids I know don’t trust doctors at all.
No, because they have higher incidences of mental problems. Just reporting the facts…
I mean that too, but I think it’s both. I just thought the first one would be an easier pill to swallow because it doesn’t require any statistics (and statistics can be manipulated, so statistics don’t mean very much unless you explain the methodology, and that would take too long). You can sort of just tell that rightoids often wouldn’t take drugs from doctors by talking to them and knowing their opinions.
I don’t “think” I know why. I report a study done on mental issues in the population. Look it up. Do your own homework. Or not. It matters not to me.
Everything can be manipulated. The world only accepts what it wants to believe. Jesus could come down and say”brethren, the sun shall rise in the East” and a significant segment of the population would argue. I’ve heard every lame argument trying to disprove my statements about liberal women having more mental issues than the population. Fuck it.
What is a “rightoid “?
Agree….
Saying “I haven’t heard a lot of women say they are doing too many chores” is like standing in the rain and insisting the weather’s fine because you personally don’t feel wet. Women have been shouting about the unequal division of labor for decades—from the second wave through to every millennial burnout blog post and TikTok explainer on emotional labor. If you’re not hearing it, maybe you’ve got selective hearing tuned to “mute” when women speak.
And wealth doesn’t cancel out patriarchy. So households with wealth should have wives that just radiate gratitude and sexual availability at all times? Having help at home doesn’t fix emotional neglect, the mental load, or being married to a man who thinks “support” means not actively making her life harder.
Women have unrealistic expectations? You mean expecting a partner who communicates, pulls his weight, and treats you like an equal? God forbid women want something more than being a bangmaid with a day planner.
Then you toss in a bonus serving of “liberal women are all on meds”—as if mental health struggles are the problem, not the crushing load of living in a society where women are expected to smile while they bleed, nurse, work, clean, and absorb their husband’s emotional constipation. Women are not broken. We’re exhausted. And no amount of Lexapro is going to make a woman happy in a marriage where her needs are seen as hysterical inconveniences.
But go off, bro. You’ve diagnosed modern womanhood without ever having to live it.
This is just priceless. ^^What she said.
People often drag up patriarchy. It does exist, and is necessary for things to work. I would imagine your position on men is “interesting.” Mainly, y’all bitch about things,and rarely solve problems. Our country runs because men work all of the dangerous, menial jobs. Call a woman plumber, landscaper, etc. plus, your seething dissatisfaction with the way things are floats just under the surface. I would rather be intimate with a tree stump than a woman with your outlook on life.
🤮 It’s a great thing I am in no way, shape, or form available to you. Frankly, I’d pity any woman who was. If the patriarchy is ‘necessary,’ it’s only for propping up fragile egos like yours. You don’t solve problems. You just project your insecurities onto women who refuse to coddle you. As for the tree stump, it sounds about your level. It’s quiet, doesn’t challenge you, and won’t call out your outdated nonsense.
And said stump probably looks way better than I imagine you look. At least it doesn’t have a mouth. I pity your husband. Betting he is gone…..
Omg 😆 resorting to physical insults when your profile pic is public is bold AF
What a crock of hair on fire shit. You’re exhausted…. Really. Chin up, bucco. This argument is so stale. But, it’s all you got, so beat that drum. Just do some research on more women being nuts than men. Infer what you want. This is a pointless haggle by a bunch of bitter matrons who can do fine by themselves. Good. Good luck. You’re going to need it
Let me make something crystal clear, you don’t get to tell me how I feel. That’s classic patriarchal bullshit. Policing women’s emotions, mocking exhaustion, and waving off legitimate critique as “hysteria” or “hair on fire shit” is tired, cowardly, and transparently misogynistic.
You’re not clever. You’re condescending, and frankly, pathetic.
Calling women “nuts” and “bitter matrons” because we’ve opted out of playing emotional janitor for emotionally stunted men like you doesn’t prove your point, it proves mine.
You’re not mad because the argument is stale. You’re mad because it’s still true 😂
Women can do fine by ourselves. That’s what terrifies you. We don’t need men who sulk when they’re not the center of the universe. We don’t need lectures from insecure bullies clinging to outdated dominance fantasies. And I sure as hell don’t need your permission to speak the truth.
Maybe you should be asking why there’s a male loneliness epidemic, why more men commit suicide and why men struggle to form healthy relationships. Channel your anger into something productive and help your brothers.
Oh, honey, why don’t you try juggling a full-time job, unpaid domestic labor, and societal expectations, all while being told to smile more. If an economic collapse comes women will still be the ones holding it all together, just like they always have. Women have been turning pennies into meals for generations. Countless mothers plan meals, clip coupons, and stretch every dollar to keep their families fed and healthy. So, if harder times come knocking, don’t worry about us—we’ve been ready. Maybe instead of condescending hypotheticals, you should thank the women who keep the world running.
What do you mean 'unpaid domestic labor'? Someone should pay you for keeping your house clean and buying groceries? What if you live alone? Is anything you don't love to do counted as 'unpaid labor'? This is a nonsensical way to look at the world.
Until, of course, the person who did all that unpaid work gets too old and sick to work anymore, and—surprise!! She never had a job, so no Social Security for her! What’s she supposed to live on?? Or—there’s a divorce. Now she can’t command much of a salary, she has no resume. Yet there he is in divorce court saying he shouldn’t have to pay alimony, because she “sat at home on his dime and did nothing.” Um … who raised the kids? Who birthed the kids? Who cooked the meals and kept house and kept everything running while he went to work?? If these things are worth no money, then the people who do them are deemed to deserve poverty, and that’s not right.
I got a question. How would you feel if the husband didn’t want his wife to work and wanted her to do the other jobs (other than smiling more). I agree that it’s unreasonable for women to do both and it’s destroying the childhood of children (along with school today being taught to make us hate learning). But someone still has to do the childcare and housework. Do you have a solution in mind?
Women CAN do these jobs, and in WWII? When all the men were away at war? That's exactly what they did.
Of course, in the 50s, we needed them back in the kitchen again, so the men could have all the jobs.
Yeah … I experienced this, only it was elder care and not kids. I knew not to cut off the sex, but it was a real struggle at times.
My point is that women deserve to feel seen and heard and have their important needs met just as much as men. Why should a woman who is mentally and physically drained and isn’t in the mood herself, acquiesce to a man’s needs and have sex, when he is not interested in meeting hers?
My late husband was a wonderful person and other than being stuck with the chores, I was very happy. I wasn't willing to divorce him over it, and really, unless you are, you have no sway. And I wasn't going to trash the marriage retaliating.
What I did was put myself on a schedule where I did a little bit every night, so I didn't spend every day off catching up on chores. The place never was entirely up to my specs, but it was livable, things got done, and I wasn't angry and resentful all the time.
What eventually happened was, my husband got diagnosed with brain cancer. When you're watching a guy who can barely stand up nearly fall over trying to wipe pee off the toilet rim because you've been bitching about it for seven years ... it really breaks your heart.
As it should.
“My point is that women deserve to feel seen and heard and have their important needs met just as much as men.”
And you can find about ten million other articles right here on this very platform, not to mention about ten billion elsewhere, in which women talk about not being seen or heard or otherwise endlessly complain about men and their their relationships with them. This post is about a problem that disproportionately affects men. Hijacking the comments to try to steer the discussion to women’s problems is extremely tacky, not to mention entirely redundant given the sheer volume of articles about women’s complaints that exist. There is room on the internet for people to occasionally talk about things that make men unhappy, even if you’d rather they didn’t.
Well ... it's not tacky, it's a legitimate question. It sure was one I had to ask myself from time to time.
The tacky part was not the question itself, it was the implicit demand that the subject be changed to that question. The topic of there being no socially acceptable actions to take for the unhappy party in a sexless marriage — which is usually, albeit not always, the man — is not only very interesting, but rarely discussed.
By contrast, articles consisting of women’s complaints about men and their needs not being met in relationships are probably the most common thing on the internet besides porn.
So in this context, the reflexive “Well what about the women? Why aren’t you talking about what *I* want you to talk about? I’m sure it’s the men’s fault anyway” subject change just feels like an attempt to snuff out discussion of a worthy yet relatively rarely-addressed topic and replace it with one that’s commonly and comprehensively covered elsewhere.
"Hijacking the comments to try to steer the discussion to women’s problems is extremely tacky, not to mention entirely redundant given the sheer volume of articles about women’s complaints that exist."
If you go anywhere on the internet that isn't explicitly right-wing, this will happen every single time somebody writes about a problem men have. Probably better to focus on the more on-topic discussions, but it's hard to not get sucked into it...
This phenomenon is making a lot of men decide to go places that ARE explicitly right-wing, so somebody will actually listen to them for 20 minutes, even if they are virtually guaranteed to give horrible advice and a twisted call to action.
You really said, “Women talk about this elsewhere, so let’s not do it here,” as if justice and equity are some kind of zero-sum game where men can only be heard in absolute silence from the other half of the population.
Let me make this simple for you, since nuance seems to be in short supply: pointing out why women in sexless marriages might not be interested in sex isn’t “hijacking” the conversation — it’s contextualizing it. You want to talk about male dissatisfaction in marriage? Great. But pretending that it exists in a vacuum where women are just mysteriously frigid and unfair is intellectually lazy and emotionally dishonest.
Also, the sheer entitlement of saying there are “too many” articles about women’s experiences is hilarious. You know why that is? Because for centuries, everything else has been written by, for, and about men. The second women raise their voices en masse, suddenly we’re “complaining” and taking up too much space. God forbid we suggest that maybe, just maybe, female pleasure and wellbeing should matter as much as male desire.
This isn’t about silencing men. It’s about dismantling a system where male unhappiness is treated as a crisis, and female exhaustion is treated as an inconvenience. You want your needs met? Start by respecting your partner’s humanity. Start by not expecting emotional labor and domestic service on tap while demanding access to her body like it’s part of the goddamn cable package.
Women aren’t the problem here. Entitlement is. And judging by your comment, there’s still plenty of that to go around.
Well, actually ...
The fact is that there ARE reasons OTHER than getting stuck with all the domestic labor, being tired, and these sorts of usual issues that sex dies in a marriage.
There are. There really, really are!! ALTHOUGH, I will say, having been through the doing-80-percent-of-the-housework-while-having-all-this-extra-"thin"-work-to-do-because-I'M-the-fat-one-AND-having-all-the-elder-care-too that WHEN this is the reason, AND it IS the reason an awful, AWFUL lot of the time ...
I can also say BECAUSE I've run a pub on infidelity for over five years AND I've done tons of research ...
There ARE other things that kill a woman's sex drive EVEN WHEN the aforementioned house-and-chore imbalance is somehow NOT a factor.
And I suppose these cases were in fact more what I was thinking of when I wrote the piece.
Which takes nothing away from the fact that donating all your free time to everyone else so they get to have it whilst you are washing dishes, doing laundry, vacuuming, and cooking sure ain't sexy.
Far, FAR from it!!
(I do hope this clarifies things a bit.)
And the other thing is that now we get into this polarized thing where one person says, "Why do I have to care about YOUR needs when you don't care about MY needs?" and the OTHER person says, "Why do I have to care about YOUR needs when you don't care about MY needs?" and now we just have two angry people who aren't giving a living shit about each other and USING THAT to justify being two angry people who aren't giving a living shit about each other.
And the only way around THAT is, it's your job to care. Period. So shut up and CARE.
And if the other person STILL doesn't meet you halfway, wise up and get the fuck out.
No use being a damn fool about it.
What men do does not count to women as they don’t think it is important but through history men provided resources and protection in ways women don’t and refuse to acknowledge. Most men simply shut up and do their jobs. They used to say the same about lion prides: the males were lazy and useless but when the pride loses its male, the pride disappears, cubs all killed and territory cancelled
There is SOME merit to that. Although, I will say, men get a lot of pride and needs met by grinding away at that job, job, job they complain about. Whereas, after a while, picking up the same damn laundry and dusting the same damn furniture and vacuuming the carpet yet AGAIN does not give most people any sort of self-worth. It's the kind of job people crap on. Yes, we do pay for this kind of work in society, but it's also known as "lazy people's work." The people who do it--janitors, elder care workers, Target and Wal-Mart employees--are the lowest caste of workers in this country, people whom everyone thinks don't deserve a living wage because they are "lazy" and "should better themselves."
This is the same kind of work that when it's time to divorce, the husband discounts, saying things like, "*I* brought home the bacon X number of years while she did 'nothing.' So, I deserve to keep all the money and leave her with nothing. (Even though she had no career for X number of years because she was keeping 'my' house and raising 'my' kids.)"
Women KNOW that keeping up a home is devalued by society and not considered "real" work. The same as fast food is devalued by society and not considered "real" work. Yet, if you have done either one, you KNOW how boring, tedious, and difficult either is, and that it most certainly IS REAL WORK.
So, there IS a difference between the work men traditionally have done and the work women traditionally have done. Especially when "men's" jobs around the home tend to be things that only need doing once every week or two or once every few months (mowing the lawn, changing the oil in the family car/s.) While the work WOMEN traditionally have done generally means hours and hours of work every week THEY have to do that no one else has to do.
(On top of all the shit she has to do to attempt to achieve the all-important societal command/demand: STAY THIN.)
Dear god, the irony. How tf are Western women 'exhausted' again? This 'mental/emotional' load crap is a cult. You're not half the victim you need to be.
"some kind of zero-sum game"
Many people treat many things as zero-sum that aren't, but attention is, in fact, zero-sum.
Wow. You’re spot on. Prepare to be skinned alive by the harpies…..
If they both keep withdrawing (not listening and responding to the others needs) and both feel hurt (their own needs not being heard and responded to), then it's only going one way - towards ending the relationship. They both have a responsibility to reach out, listen, communicate how they feel & and what they need and work to meet the other's needs.
And ONE stubborn person has to be the one to go first.
Also known as “I have been trying for years! It’s been so hard waiting for them to give me what I really need so they can be worthy of me giving them what they want”
Why are you fitting the sexless marriage phenomenon solely in one box? Why are lack of emotional and domestic labor by husband the only possible reasons for disinterest in sex to you?
Because most people don't know shit about the other ones!!!
My opinion: there can be many reasons for a sexless marriage. Chores, too tired, etc. But how about another possibility. Women have biological clocks so they might pick a partner when time is getting late, have their kids and then wake up one day and are not happy with their choice. They say women overwhelmingly initiate divorce. Could regret with their choice of partner be a reason for a sexless marriage and eventual divorce?
Yes, this was me. My ex-husband changed his attitude to me once our children were born. Looking back, I believe it was a, "I've got you now; you can't leave as you have our children to consider". He was a high earner, and I didn't want our children to grow up in a relatively impoverished environment as I had done.
I kept thinking that it was just a rough patch that we were going through. Then after about 15 years, I knew that it was never going to get better.
He was on his second marriage with me. In his first marriage, he deliberately took a low paid job after his divorce to minimise his childcare payments. This should have been a red flag to me, but I was younger, naive and my biological clock was ticking away.
Dr. Psych Mom calls this “baby derangement syndrome.”
And there are men who find women less desirable after they pass a baby through their playground
You're 2nd paragraph is pretty interesting. What's the red flag there?
The tragic/fascinating thing is that on average husbands now do significantly more (around triple) around the house and with their kids, catching up to where women were a few decades ago. The trouble is that mothers on average are doing even more (roughly double). It's a domestic arms race, and like all arms races, everyone loses.
Most relationship and sex therapists say that the problems in the bedroom start outside the bedroom….
Both men and women have sexual and touch needs…it also strikes me as normal to have ebs and flows and to need to rediscover desire.
For example 1)infertility kills desire, but it can come back 2) sudden hormone changes kills desire
3) low self esteem kills desire
Being exhausted alone doesn’t kill desire…feeling like you are shouldering all the responsibility kills desire…remember when you met and couldn’t get your hands off each other? You would stay up late well past bedtime to have sexy time and yes be tired the next day and yes you can’t do that every night for years, but you know…regularly you can.
I am finding more and more often a loss of libido is a sign of hormone imbalance…a medical issue that for too long has been ignored and women blamed themselves.
My wife is one of the 1-5%, she's never felt any sexual desire or attraction to me or anyone else - ever. No self exploration, no masturbation until she was in her 40s and discovered the bullet vibrator, then just quick and done. She never wants to talk about sex.
I don't blame her for marrying me, we grew up in an era of sex just being for the husband, so she thought she was normal. There was never any mention of asexuality back then.
She is starting to understand my needs, mostly based on this podcast, for sexual intimacy, but she just can't engage that way. Hence the discussions around opening our relationship.
Asexuality isn't wrong of course, it's just how she's made, but if we'd known and understood each other, then we wouldn't have got married.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/5NmgUq6nzEI35wMUTZ18sr?si=_XSuti0gR_CCJTmqhMW80w
Now we have built a good life, family and home together (and been sexless for many years), so Dr Psych Mom's ideas for alternatives is a really helpful discussion starter:
https://www.drpsychmom.com/arrangements-when-one-partner-stops-wanting-sex-anymore/
Yyyyyyeah.
Having been The Other Woman, I strongly suggest just seeing a professional. Generally, the Other Person ends up used, hurt, and treated like crap.
But, I guess we've discussed that.
The other risk is, you meet someone you really like and YOU fall in love, and ... what then???
Yes, exactly! Having an affair is great, at the start, but it’s really hard to avoid it becoming incredibly painful for one of you, sooner or later, and it’s impossible to predict who’s going to be the one to get too attached, too greedy. If you’re the cheating spouse you might get “lucky” a few times and be the one who breaks it off, but that’ll just encourage you to keep trying until you meet your nemesis!
Thus leaving behind a trail of broken hearts and bitter, used women.
Huh? Women dump guys as often as men dump women. Or do women not break things off?
If you read the thread, I was talking about being the female mistress in an extramarital affair.
Indeed! I mean, I avoided mentioning the gender because presumably the same danger awaits unfaithful women. But yes, it’s hard being the Other Woman, and I’m sorry.
That is a situation where everyone loses. The absolute most painful outcome is falling in love.
It's unclear which situation you meant. (It gets a little difficult to tell what reply is to what when you get a lot of replies on here sometimes.
Falling in love complicates things exponentially
Thank-you. Seems to me, that in our situation there are no good options. From the Dr Psych Mom article:
a) I just put up with being sexless for the rest of my life
b) We open our marriage - I hear you
c) I get "happy ending" massages
d) Divorce
We are seeing a professional, although I am not sure how that would guard against the risks of (b).
Well ... good luck.
Keep me posted.
We've agreed to try out option c. My wife is very supportive.
I hope it goes well.
If your kids are grown (b) is nothing to fear. Not to my mind. She has zero sex drive. It is a part of most relationships. If she won’t partake then to my thinking it is silly to stay together. Unless you have kids. In which case do what you have to do until the kids are 18. But don’t hate her over this. She is who she is and she has the right to be that. You have the right to say ‘thanks, but that doesn’t work for me’.
Until the kids see their mother crying and blaming you and decide never to speak to you again. When your whole family will ostracize you if you get a divorce … it takes a brave person to get a divorce.
If the kids are grown up then you can stay and be unhappy your ENTIRE LIFE or you can do something. Not a hard decision from my POV.
Bullshit. I carried the entire load for 23 years in a loveless sexless marriage. Stop acting as if all women are somehow saints who are exhausted because of men who don't contribute. Its a total lie. Most men, are actually pretty good guys.
We all judge everyone else by ourselves.
I’ve seen plenty of “coasting” men.
I hear this so often, and no offense, but a lot of the time it’s myopic and one-sided, and informed nearly entirely by female perspectives. I don’t know your circumstances but thought i’d mention that.
Some things to consider
1) are your standards for “the load” different from his? I find women tend to discount work outside the home and financial provision while having far higher domestic standards than men. Many of us would happily live in a cave needing minimal cleaning/maintenance left to our own devices. It is my experience most men become increasingly domesticated over the course of a marriage to suit their wives and these concessions are often wholly discounted.
2) Have you agreed upon what “the load” looks like and how its split up or have you just traded demands with each other?
3) what is he providing in the relationship/household you are overlooking? If its nothing, then why are you still together?
4) do you have psychological needs for acts of his devotion yet deny him psychological needs for acts of your intimacy?
5) If he is so worthless as to deserve your continual sexual/emotional rejection, why are you still together?
People like you have no issues with treating a man like a walking wallet though. Also, therapist? GTFOH. No man wants that from a wife.
Who is "you?"
Pretty sure he's referring to Elise, honestly. I'm assuming you have a fairly large audience of entitled/feminist women (they're essentially synonymous), and they love the woman since she's excusing what amounts to terrible behaviour from most women.
Using vomit emojis in the comments and shaming random guys is pretty pathetic, really -- but hey, I'm just a tourist here. Someone I subscribe to restacked this article and I found myself reading it.
For what it's worth, I loved it. Thought you summarized matters for men relating to marriage very well indeed. Sure, there are plenty of men who are not pulling their weight in marriages -- and women have every right to deny those men sex -- but I suspect in the majority of cases it's just Western women being Western women, really.
My best friend back home is in exactly the kind of situation you describe. He's been taking care of the kids an insane amount, doing all the handy work, at least half of the housework, cooking ALL the meals (he's an ex-chef), going to the gym in the hopes that she'll notice, and working like a dog.
The result? She shuts down his every advance. He was once the man that every girl wanted, now I'm fairly certain he's addicted to porn because he has lost all hopes in her ever putting out. Why does he stay? For the kids, of course. Most men who put up with these circumstances do, sadly.
And I've said to him point blank that I wouldn't tolerate it. But then, most men do. Most.
It’s called, “marriage counseling.”
This kind of thing was exactly what my ex-AP did. Then I came and went, and he’s still there, in the sexless marriage … doing the Same Old Thing.
Only … he’s going to be 67 soon, so probably sex is no longer even an issue.
Gross dude 🤮 do better
It'd be kind of amazing that a man would want to have sex with his wife at all with that amount of hostility radiating off of her.
edit: I posted this comment in the wrong place. This was a response to guy criticizing me for saying “I think” instead of being like him and saying “I know”. I’d delete it, but I want to alert the people who responded to my comment that it was a mistake.
————————————
(original comment)
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I said “think” as a way to say “you know, I agree with you, but I think you’re missing something, lemme share it”. It would feel presumptuous to say, “I agree with you, but you’re missing something and I can’t be wrong”.
Being matter of fact in this context feels impolite, but that might just be the Canadian in me speaking. Either way, it does not produce productive conversation, and if I’m not doing that, why am I commenting?
Also, if you won’t give me the source I have no idea what you’re talking about. There are… a lot of studies on this topic. I don’t need it though. I’m satisfied with Ubersoy’s take in his article “Why is the left mentally ill”.
Mmmkay. Yet the so-called “right” can support the abolition of the separation of church and state, attempt to make the entire country a Christain theocracy, attempt to take voting rights away from women, take down half the government and start a tariff war, cut SNAP and Medicaid to give the very very wealthy yet ANOTHER tax break, and elect a rapist and felon president twice while believing, bizarrely, that Hillary Clinton and other leading Democrats were sacrificing children and drinking their blood in the basement of an Arlington PIZZA PARLOR … and WE’RE the ones who are mentally ill??
Ohhhhhhkay …
Sorry, I was responding to the wrong comment. I can see why this would be confusing. Someone criticized me for saying “I think” before saying something he agreed with.
That said, even if you are right about everything you said, I stand by lefties being more likely to be mentally ill. Being wrong about facts is not that strong of a sign of mental illness. You’re confusing correctness for mental health. Seemingly because you associate correctness with morality. Proving rightoids are wrong doesn’t prove they are mentally ill, so that’s not the way to go about the conversation. You need to prove that rightoids have something leftoids don’t that correlates with mental illness.
Dare I say it’s probably healthier for an individual to have mythos surrounding the unknown than not to, even if in many cases it’s a bit absurd, like sea monsters, bigfoot, dwarves, the wealthy drinking infant blood, elves, etc. Most ideas that don’t make you paranoid will help by giving you a coherent world view to help you understand the unknown, albeit in an incorrect way. It often describes a symbolic truth. Sometimes this symbolic truth is basically literally true, like with the sea monsters. The idea of “sea monsters” sounds sort if stupid, but when you think about it, we’ve proven that these monsters exist, we’ve just mapped out and classified them (eg, whales, colossal squid, sharks, etc).
My point is, letting oneself be wrong in the same was as people around them gives them a coherent world view, and this is often healthy.
I mean, would you say an uneducated rednecker is more likely to be mentally ill than an educated city man? I’d imagine not, and that proves that being unlearned is not correlated with mental illness, but often it’s the other way around.
Personally I go about this topic by citing studies, despite the uncertainty that comes with them. It matches up with my experiences so I’m inclined to believe it. If you have something else, even non-study based, I’d check it out (unless it’s too long)
Could it also be that conservatives are less likely to trust science, to believe in “all that mental health and headshrinker stuff,” and also more likely to lean on people to conform such that conservatives who experience mental health symptoms are more likely to try to tough it out, to deny that anything could actually be wrong with them, to try to handle it with their pastor or by prayer than to pursue mental health treatment, or to believe that any mental-illness-inducing situation such as spousal abuse is just ordained by God as The Way Things Are Supposed To Be rather than seeking mental health services? Thus we have a population that self-selects themselves out of mental health treatment?
Ignoring the religious stuff I think you’re right. I mean, I wouldn’t go to a doctor for mental illness unless it was ruining my life—on second thought I actually take back what I said about the study. It doesn’t say much.
Even thought the stats say little, which I am inclined to believe as the difference of mental illness in lefties and rightists has increased in the studies over the years, in my mind pointing to politics having an influence. I still have no reason to believe that leftists aren’t more mentally ill though and it intuitively makes sense.
Saying “being matter of fact feels impolite” may seem benign, even self-aware, but when directed at a woman speaking directly and confidently, it becomes part of a larger, gendered pattern.
Men are rarely told to cushion their ideas in politeness to make them more palatable. When they’re assertive, they’re seen as confident. When women are matter of fact, we’re framed as impolite, combative, or unproductive. That double standard is the patriarchy at work. Expecting women to prioritize social ease over clarity is how uncomfortable truths get softened—and dismissed.
Framing your disagreement as “I think you’re missing something” wrapped in performative politeness doesn’t make it less critical, it just disguises the condescension. You’re not actually offering a respectful dialogue if you follow up by citing an article titled “Why is the left mentally ill.” That isn’t discourse. That’s a provocation hiding behind a polite smile.
Anyway women don’t need to make truths sound sweet to be worthy of being heard. And they definitely don’t owe politeness when what’s actually being asked is submission.
Maybe, but I was talking to a man who was criticizing me for not being matter of factly. Did I respond to the wrong comment? If so I’m sorry about that.
edit: Ohh, now I remember. I thought substack deleted this comment earlier, but I suppose it just went in the weong place.
It’s completely impossible for most women to be objective about the respective levels of effort that they and their spouse put into the marriage. Most likely you just hate your husband and there’s nothing he can do to fix that and/or you’re just an inherently miserable person.
Then find a man who shares the load. No?
If a man ignores emotional and domestic labor, most women will experience reduced desire. Working full-time plus The Second Shift at home makes for exhaustion at bedtime. Let's ask WHY so many women don't want sex with their husbands. Maybe he's not very satisfying. The average sex act lasts less than 10 minutes. Maybe, like my ex, he likes to make it hurt.
Comparing a loss of desire to being an abuser erases the thousands of women KILLED each year by intimate partners.
Well, been in that situation (not the one where the guy made sure sex hurt), but the rest of it, yeah. I did not realize how much sexual warmup women actually need. I just thought something was wrong with me. WHY?? That's what's in the culture, and that's what the men I was with thought and said. If I had known better, we could have talked about it and I could have asked for better. Instead, I tried to confine sex to Sundays, when we mostly stayed in and laid around and cuddled and watched movies all day, and ...SURPRISE!! Somehow I found myself in the mood!! That didn't mean something was wrong with me, it's just how it IS.
“The average sex act lasts less than 10 minutes”. And yet even this is too much to ask? I quick 3 minute handsy in the morning a couple times a week before getting out of bed, combined with real intimacy a couple times a week and you’ve made your man feel like a king who’ll be as loyal as a dog, (less time than you’ll spend painting your toenails.)
If he’s hurting you intentionally you’ve got some serious abuse issues to work through, don’t conflate the desire for loving sex with what’s clearly an abuse situation.
If it's less than ten minutes, yeah, it IS too much to ask.
The reason? The number of women who can orgasm in that tiny amount of time, much less find the encounter enjoyable at all, is miniscule.
Women's bodies aren't made to SPRING into arousal and orgasm bang-bang-bang in nothing flat like men's are. I can count the number of times that's EVER happened to me on one hand. And I'm 57.
If that's all the time a man believes sex should take and that's all there is to it for him, HE'S A LOUSY LOVER. That's when sex hurts--she's not even aroused. Worse, she feels like she's some sort of receptacle for him to "empty" himself into and then she feels tossed aside like a piece of garbage.
Women need to feel like you actually give a shit in order to want to have sex with you. So there's where my complaining poster has a point. Men who leave the woman with all the chores just because she's the one without a penis, and then pump-'em-and-dump-in-them and expect her to be satisfied with being treated like that?? They don't give a living shit about that woman, and she knows it.
I’m a big believer in orgasms. For the woman. And many more than one. And any sex that lasts 10 min or less is just masturbation. At best. If a man wants to feel like a REAL king, he should learn how to make love for hours, not minutes. All woman can go for hours. It’s sad that hardly any men can. If you get even part way there, you won’t have to ask for sex. You’ll get more than you know whatever to do with.
Agreed. I never understood these people who get home from a stressful day physiologically ready to go and are done in ten minutes. And there’s something wrong with you if you can’t do that, plus they feel put out having to “deal” with you and your stupid slow body.
Ridiculously unrealistic all around.
This is ridiculous. Millions of couples with kids get sex done in 20 minutes and both partners taken care of. The female orgasm is not some mysterious thing that needs 2 weeks of foreplay to achieve.
Im sorry but we don’t my need to orgasm every time we are intimate with our husbands. I almost never do despite his insistent attempts. You know why? Because we don’t really, really need it for the sex to still be enjoyable. I get very aroused by my husband’s arousal. Most of the time thats enough for me because the effort towards orgasming just isn’t often worth it to me. This western insistence on women always orgasming during sex puts a lot of pressure on women, ironically. Why do you always need to get off to feel that you’ve had good sex? Men do, women don’t. We don’t get blue balls. We can be fine enjoying the intimacy and the pleasure our husbands derive from it.
We accept less because we were taught to be pleasing. We were brainwashed to believe that our greatest happiness is securing the happiness of others.
The younger generation isn’t buying it, and I’m grateful. They are showing us that sex can be better - IS better according to research - in relationships where intimacy isn’t patriarchal by default, but more egalitarian in and out of the bedroom.
Patriarchy makes women mute and men deaf. A woman can’t speak up about chores, mental load, or emotional labor without forfeiting her badge of infinite self-sacrifice. And men can’t listen to a women asking for what she needs without hearing criticism or complaining. And it condemns both of them to bad sex
BS
Not too much to ask; too little to satisfy.
Doing chores won't make a woman want to fuck her husband. Nice try tho
It can sure make her NOT want to!!!!
Been there for REAL.
Yes. IMO, once one of you is keeping a scoreboard, the relationship is suffering. IDK if doing chores fixes anything, but some conversations are definitely called for.
It's not about a scoreboard. It's whether one person has a 2nd job doing all the domestic labor. Needing basic fairness is hardly keeping score!
Aww, come on, now!! We women have THREE jobs!! The third one is called, "Looking like an eighteen-year-old-supermodel-from-the-teens-to-the-grave!"
Men are under just as much social pressure to look good as women are. The national rates of obesity are nearly the same in men and women
Like I said, if you have reached the point of feeling things are unfair, it is time for some conversations to be had. If you have had those conversations and things still are unfair, then I would ask you why you would want to remain in such an unfair arrangement. It is time for something else to be done
My apologies. I can’t help mansplaining. I need to lose some weight as well. And have for decades. It’s hard. And it’s not like I’ve got success stories to share.
But the GLP-1 drugs are a new thing and I’ve seen lots of DC folks losing lots of weight. My daughter and son-in-law are both in the “need to loose over 100 lbs” category. Neither have had luck with the diet/ exercise process. But they are seeing GLP improvement. I just know how crappy extra weight makes me feel, and I was only writing from a care perspective. Good luck on your journey
Thing is, I know how to lose weight. If I am 50-75% raw, eat 1500-1700 calories a day, and exercise every other day, I will lose weight.
Trouble is, being 50-75% raw is a LOT of work. I could do it while working part time but when my husband passed away, I had to go back to full time work. And in the past five years I have never gotten injured easier or stayed injured longer. So exercise hasn’t been a thing. I’m also older and don’t have the energy I used to have. Even five years ago I would stress all day long at work and then drive 45 minutes somewhere with well-lit sidewalks, jog three miles, go to my favorite place that closed in the pandemic and have a healthy salad, then rush home, shower and shampoo, go to bed and get up and do it all over again, and now I have NO idea how I DID that. I get home from work and I’m tired. I don’t want to spend all this time running down the road anymore. I’m almost sixty years old. You spend all this time working and working and working and working … and, of course, you have nothing to show for it. This IS America, after all. I’ve been stressing and stressing my whole life and I’m about ready to stop.
It’s stupid.
I agree with changing energy output. I used to sleep only 4 to 5 hours a night work 60hrs a week in a lab and IT and run a farm. When I passed 7 decades I found 6 to 7 hours of sleep is needed. And 60hrs a week? No way. But I can still out labor young men 1/3 my age. Thank goodness for that.
This pretty strong. I am not sure I am brave or confident or cruel enough to share this with my "wife".
I've listened to the podcast, which is similarly blunt, and it rings true, especially my low self esteem in my relational, physical, sexual and romantic attractiveness, leading to complicity. Asking for my "needs" to be met, feels selfish to the point of abuse.
We've started a conversation about opening our marriage, based on this podcast. Thank-you for bringing it to my attention.
Don’t do it. It’s basically just avoiding the problem and it WILL make it worse.
Get couples therapy and make sure before hand that the therapist is one who wants to keep you together not just “give permission” for you to divorce.
Failing that, divorce.
On the open marriage question - maybe you guys would be the rare couple where it would work. You are being open and you have “done the work”. So maybe maybe it might work. The huge risk is that if you start having sex with someone else you will fall in love with them and maybe they will fall in love with you. And if you think your marriage has problems now, wait until you have that problem, oh boy. If you are going to do it I would recommend a prostitute and not talking to her or being intimate or emotional. That will be unsatisfying but you really need to keep that boundary or you will imperil your marriage.
Yeah yeah yeah, the marriage, the marriage, the marriage. Nobody thinks about the mistress who falls in love and gets used and left. She is just the whore who got what she deserved.
Women are particularly hostile to the OW. You’re probably better off admitting to being a child abuser.
Yyyyyyep.
Although if he had left her and married you, wouldn’t you want him to prioritise his marriage with you?
*I* was willing to prioritize the marriage he already had, IF I had looked at the reports and seen someone who was willing to do her goddamned work. If she sounded like someone who really had concern about why he was so upset, instead of blaming everything on him, acting like she was owed everything, and running around telling everyone else he was crazy, I was prepared to just bow out and hope they saved their marriage. Instead, she insisted on counseling and then "sort of slept through it" and "acted like she didn't really want to be there." and guess what?? He STILL stayed. Okay ... you get what you pay for. A wife like this, I have NO sympathy for. If it had been my husband, the first thing I would have wanted to know was why he was so unhappy and what I could have done.
Very probably, but this just emphasises what a terrible idea an affair is. How the effects ripple out and reverberate in the coming months and years..
Are you implying that a sex worker might be susceptible to falling in love with me?
I understand the importance of your message, which comes from personal pain. I think you being willing to share in this context, for the benefit/warning to people like me, is brave and effective. I am just trying to understand whether you think there is an aspect of your message, that I am missing in our deliberations?
The special case you have is, as I understand it, your wife will have sex but it doesn't do anything for her and there's no connection? Finding either of those things with someone else is going to be emotionally risky. So, guard yourself and observe your feelings. Bail if anything starts to develop.
I think you definitely reduce the risk with a sex worker. And it’s much more likely that you fall in love with her (or feel like you are in love) rather than the opposite way around. But it can happen. You have explained that you miss the intimate connection and that may well develop. That sets off the thing in our brains called love. So I know it sounds harsh but the thing you are missing most is what you need to avoid developing with a sex worker. It’s horrible but I would say to try to keep it mechanical and clinical, impersonal. But then (unlike most men in this situation perhaps) you already have something better than that with your wife… I don’t know bud, such a difficult situation.
:-)
That was exactly our thinking too. I have now visited a happy ending masseuse a couple of times. I/we are currently evaluating how that went and what it means going forward. One of the good things that has come out of this, is that taking the "burden" of sex, off of us, has really helped our relationship, become deeper and more honest.
I do recall feeling burdened because it seemed I was expected to respond in a certain way or there was something wrong with me and I was disappointing him because my body didn’t respond like his body. Honesty is very important here.
I was going to say, it might take the pressure off and improve your marriage.
We've had quite a bit of couples and individual therapy, over the last 3 years, instigated by me - I was fed up that our relationships was so guarded that we couldn't even talk about the complete lack of sex for the previous 15 years. The result of all that therapy and lots of research and face-to-face conversations - my wife is asexual, she has never experienced sexual attraction or desire for me or anyone else ever, it just doesn't compute for her.
Having been brought up in a very sex negative context and told that sex for for the man, she didn't realise there was anything "wrong" or "different" about her. Of course being asexual is not wrong, it is her orientation, she was devastated when she realised, she longed to be "normal". She expected sex with me to be meh and very one-sided. I also was brought up in a sex negative context, there was never any conversations about it at all. I didn't know what we had was wrong. She was happy to have sex to get pregnant, once she had the babies she wanted, that was it. I retreated into porn, due to shame and very low self esteem.
That all said, we have built a good life, family and home together. We are BFFs. Yes, we are co-parenting (of now adult children) room mates. We can never have sex. When I was young, my libido was mostly strong enough to manage, but when there's zero desire (apart from a wish for it to be over ASAP) coming back, whatever I do, before, during or after, it's not sex any more. However willing she is, I can no longer use her as a masturbatory aid.
Do we throw away what we have, just for sex? Is it wrong to explore getting that need met elsewhere? Is it doomed to failure? Are the only two options divorce (all all the damaging ripple affects of that) or enforced involuntary celibacy?
Well, lemme tell you from the perspective of the mistress, affairs are JUST FUCKING HORRIBLE. You meet the man of your dreams … and he’ll have sex with you but that’s it. The mistress falls in love and puts her whole life aside to be USED and dumped as soon as the wife and family get too uncomfortable. NOT a position I would advise for anyone.
100% agree. I've never been tempted by the idea of having an affair. I am also grateful that this has never been an issue I have had to consciously say "no" to.
That is a tough situation. Credit to you both for talking and going through the therapy. Credit to your wife for “going through the motions” of sex even though she is not into it. I am not personally convinced about asexuality or it being “an orientation”. It’s a social fashion but how real is it…? It is certainly a face saving excuse for all concerned. Not meaning to offend anyone, especially you or your wife.
An alternative explanation is birth control pills - these alter sexual attraction and often cause women to marry men who they are attracted to while on the pill but cease to be sexually attracted to after having children (adding to the general reduction in desire after having children).
My personal answer to your question is that you’re right, what you have is more important than sex, and you have both done what you can to make the best of it. It really sucks and I’m sorry for you both.
Thank-you
This is the podcast that finally helped us realise that she is asexual: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5NmgUq6nzEI35wMUTZ18sr?si=d6bac6e0ba804cd9
Believe us, that we have tried every other explanation and oddly I fully believe her, that this is not about me, she has never experienced any sexual desire or attraction to anyone ever. I realise that asexuality can be hard to understand and accept, although adding "none" to straight, gay, bi, doesn't seem that much of a stretch. The best analogy I can give, is that she was born deaf and whilst she understands the concept of sound (e.g. buzzing next to the skin), the concept of music, of making music, is so far outside her lived experience, that she cannot relate. She can intellectually understand that I might want to listen to and even make music, but can't relate to the idea.
I am not saying that no one uses "I'm asexual" as a face saving excuse, but it is not us.
The concept of me being with another woman sexually, holds no meaning for her other than intellectual curiosity - and yes we have really talked this through thoroughly. She understands enough to be worried about me leaving her, but that's the extent of it.
Ok well good luck brother and tread carefully. You are a good man with a good wife. I really hope it works out for you both and your family.
Good luck! Let me know how it goes.
Falling in love with other partners is a very likely outcome when opening a marriage, but it doesn’t have to mean the end of that marriage. You can craft any kind of relationship structure that works for all involved— it’s hard work but the payoff can be transformative.
Trouble is, when somebody's married, the spouse ALWAYS comes first and the extra person is just that ... an extra, a propper-upper. As soon as someone's unhappy, the extra person gets dumped. They're really just being used, and pretty soon they're going to get tired of it.
Your perspective would be helpful as we explore this idea.
You've described how you fell in love with the man who was having an affair with you, which led to obvious deep heartbreak, when he didn't leave his wife. Do you think it is likely that this same dynamic would happen in an open relationship, however mutually consensual it was - i.e. is the "falling in love" bit likely to happen again, regardless of any intellectual agreement?
"Especially if you’re a man, once you have sex with an affair partner, she will most likely fall in love."
I guess it depends on the person. Women who can have sex and not fall in love do exist.
I just don't think it's very many of us!
Thank-you
Perhaps read up on polyamory? The poly community has its issues, but they have spent a lot of time wrestling with these questions.
Trying to prevent yourself or the other person from falling in love is probably doomed to failure, but that doesn't mean it has to be the end of the marriage.
It does when one partner is not open-minded to the idea of an open marriage, which describes most people. Especially women.
And even more so when one partner is pressured into “consenting” to it. Often the women, as you say.
Sharing your wife or husband is a direct line to disaster. Better to do counseling and if that does not work, leave
We've tried years of counselling and the result, was both realising that my wife is asexual. So I think you're generally correct advice, doesn't apply very well in our situation. Only I would be seeing other women for sex. I have been seeing a happy ending masseuse, with the full support and even blessing of my wife and it is going pretty well.
We decided to try the SW route, partly based on the stories in this Substack, of people falling in love with people they meet whilst having affairs or in open relationships. To be fair, it is still early days.
OH! Duh. Never mind!!! LOL
🙂
What is “SW?”
I have been with my girlfriend 12 years and menopause changed everything. Both 63 years old. We used to have sex, but now it’s painful for her especially since I’m very girthy. But regardless of that, she has no desire even though I offer cunnilingus and she literally can orgasm in about a minute. She just has zero interest even though she can still cum so easily. We love each other and get along fabulously and totally agree on everything including politics and diet(keto/carnivore). Just no sex now. I won’t abandon her because I love her. But it’s difficult because I am very athletic and virile. I ride mountain bikes and run hills. I want sex twice a day and I don’t have any health issues and get hard like a 20 year old, so it’s very difficult because sex is always on my mind. I masturbate morning and night but we all know it’s not the same. I’m afraid if a woman made an advance I wouldn’t say no. Now I understand why many men in history had younger women on the side. It’s a difficult conundrum.
I get like this without my HRT. I lost my uterus and ovaries at 35. VERY glad they put me on HRT as I still had a husband who wanted to have sex!!!
She’s using you. Find somebody who will give you what you need.
It’s not that simple, because we do have a strong connection in many aspects including politics, diet, health, etc. And we have been through a lot together. She supported me in refusing vaccination and having to quit my job and sell my home to live in an RV because I was threatened with termination for not complying. Her family was also pushing her to get vaccinated or not see them. She has never had a vaccine. We stuck by each other and got through it. So it’s not just as simple as dumping someone because their sex drive tanked.
You don't need a sex drive to give someone oral sex.
She has never given oral sex even once, even 10 years ago when she was still sexually active. She says she doesn’t like it. Even though I love giving it all the time and enjoy doing it immensely. She says she makes up for not giving oral sex, by cooking good meals. She was only interested in sex when we were able to have penetration. Now that it’s too painful she has zero interest in sex.
Well, you know, if it’s painful I can’t blame the woman. Had some of those days myself. Fortunately I had a doctor who knew what she was doing and some determination to still have a sex life.
I have never read anything like this. Yes, it’s me…that husband. That man looking and finding! Thanks to the women who believe in these men having worth and needing a universal value…to be touched.
I’ve seen this over and over again - from both sides.
Sex workers have told me about clients that just want a dinner out, someone to talk to, and someone to spend a night with before returning to their lives for another month.
Women who are treated poorly by husbands and don’t feel loved, seeking that connection elsewhere, being demonized as lesser.
At what point is it okay to ‘outsource’?
Because you’re right. The options seem to be “destroy you’re life and start over while people hate you for it” or “live your life and have people hate you for it”
Dude, you have totally got that one right.
It's as if marriage is more for OTHER people than it is for the people IN it.
And that shit ain't right ...
I tried to leave a longer comment, but wasn’t happy with it so I’ll just say this:
1 - My wife has zero interest in sex, for several reasons that I understand. It’s still frustrating for me.
2 - I made vows to her at our wedding, one of which was fidelity. Another was respect for her and her culture. (1st Nations/Black)
3 - I’m a 66 yo white male.
4 - I am not an oath-breaker.
I am sorry. That’s quite a conundrum.. perhaps you should talk about and find a compromise..
You don't need to have interest in sex to give your partner oral sex. You just need to care about them.
SOME skill is also necessary.
So you took the “monk” route where you accept that you will be an effective eunuch for the rest of your life because your wife doesn’t want to show physical affection.
You know nothing about me. I did not use the words “physical affection”.
Please include me out of any further commentary.
Thank you for addressing this difficult yet very common issue. The frequency of sex declines in most marriages for a variety of reasons but few couples are brave enough to squarely and kindly acknowledge this before it becomes a wall that grows higher over time. Monogamy is hard while the excitement and desire that initially pulls a couple together can mask a lack of real understanding of how to satisfy a partner, particularly one of a different gender.
Having frank discussions about sexual arousal and satisfaction can seem unromantic, even insulting despite how important it is. Men in particular can resent their partners’s efforts to explain her anatomy and needs, too often taking such things personally rather than constructively. Such reactions teach women that raising this topic is a fraught and difficult step to take and one that she may feel too exhausted or frustrated to bother with. Or she may have her own trauma or challenges that she lacks the understanding or resources to work on.
The onset of menopause (and andropause) usually brings fresh hurdles that many couples lack any process (and awareness) to acknowledge or effectively address. Our Western inhibitions and gender roles compound these challenges,unfortunately. I wish I better understood them myself when marrying in my 20’s. Love does not, I found much later, conquer all.
You got that right. Most people also do not understand that women’s bodies simply REQUIRE WARMUP. They consider it a fault of the woman that her body does not work like a man’s, and that SURE doesn’t help.
Here are the three main “failure modes” of an open relationship.
- someone falls in love with the third party and/or vice versa
- one party was pressured into it
- the person who suggested it freaks out when they actually do it (and worse, the other party who wasn’t so into it is now really into it)
As the other woman who fell in love with a married man, I never felt more understood. I've been saying this for the better part of a year now. Thank you.
People can be in committed relationships and fall in love with another person, but we don't want to talk about that because it's uncomfortable. It's the ugly truth that no one wants to admit. There are a lot of reasons why women have affairs with married men, but instead of shaming them and calling them whores, perhaps we should call these women what they really are: human.
What they really are: Needy, and usually from a bad childhood.
Well, we can agree to disagree.
I will not call you any names; still: why wouldn't you tell him: "Leave her first, than come to me"?
I did.
He's still there.
Bold of you to assume that nobody did.
Most other women sleep with the guy first; then they don't want to let go of him because they're scared the relationship will end.
So if a man has poor hygiene, refuses to carry his share of the household responsibilities, and touches his wife in ways that she has repeatedly told him are invasive - and therefore she creates a boundary around physical intimacy until he starts respecting her and the relationship… It’s the woman’s fault if he cheats? Nope. Sorry, not buying it. It’s arguments like yours that keep women betraying themselves and their basic dignity in order to boost their man’s self-worth. Except it’s called SELF-worth, not wife-worth. If he loved himself, then he would be able to love his wife in ways that would let her feel connected - not disgusted.
A little common sense would be good, here. In three words, OF COURSE NOT.
I'm talking about the marriages where the husband is actually a decent guy. (They do exist.) I forgot that I have to spell out every single little possibility when I write. Sorry.
Marriages DO exist where distance grows between a couple who are, in actuality, perfectly decent, fine, kind people. Sex doesn't always stop for only one reason, and the only reason sex stops isn't that someone is a pig. There are a number of reasons this could be.
But, for pity's sake, I did not write this piece in order to assert that a wife can't say no if she discovers she's married a Neanderthal.
Oy.
It is a hateful thing to try to keep and control another human being whom you clearly hate.
I don't know if nonsexual spouses HATE the person they're with, but they certainly do seem to expect a sort of parentlike caretaking. Especially the older they get and with kids gone. The other person is sort of there for their convenience to some people.
I don't know how else to describe someone who expects you to indulge their jealousy and need to control, while they're unable to even show you intimate physical pleasure every now and again.
It isn't all that simple. Fully 1/4 of the women in this society have been raped or sexually abused, sadly many of them as minors. We live in a society with an extreme double standard, where sex is celebrated for men but if she does it or wants it, she is a "slut." In the church, sex is described as sin, dirty, and ungodly ... but, ehhhh, not so much for men. Only women.
It's very difficult to come back from a past where you were raped or sexually abused, or told never to even experience sexual desire on pain of hell fire, and then on the wedding night you are supposed to become something out of a porn film.
While we're on that subject, pr0n does not depict foreplay AT ALL. It teaches that whatever a man wants should satisfy the woman and if it does not, something is wrong with HER.
Now add in menstrual cramps, fibroids, endometriosis, pregnancy, childbirth, nursing, and the fact that the woman STILL does the lion's share in the home despite also holding a full time job and is shamed if she does not have a body like J. Lo., and you can begin to see the problem.
I haven't even mentioned: perimenopause and menopause.
A woman does not have to hate you to not want to have sex with you, I promise. I am one and have been through most of this shit so I know.
Your first few paragraphs would be fine if we were discussing teens or otherwise traumatised very young adults or perhaps people with substantial mental disabilities. Not people who are granted adult privileges, nevermind people granted those and who also expect to control the sexuality of another person.
Furthermore, obviously a woman need not hate someone to not want to have sex with them, but to seek to control them and keep them from having sex with other people, while also not having rhe maturity to set themselves aside for 30 minutes every now and again, that's disgraceful!
Sorry, "waaah, waaah, waaah I'm just a hurt innocent child" does not work in combination with "I also expect to control whom another person has sex with." No matter how intensely the emotional blackmail is communicated.
OK, this is not okay.
I come from a home where my mother was sexually abused by my grandfather and remains incurably mentally ill to this day. She is 81.
To even THINK that someone raped, sexually abused, or poorly indoctrinated by the church is supposed to just easily shake all that off is not only grossly insensitive, but, according to ALL reports I've read by the mental health professionals who treat hundreds of these people, inaccurate.
It is not only psychopaths who lack empathy, but many other people, as you have pointed out. I regret to say that you appear to be one of them.
Everything isn't about YOU. A woman can be favorably disposed toward you or, yes, even love you, and still not be able to have sex with you. And I agree, the possessiveness that won't let go in that case is neither fair nor healthy, but, no, it is not about hating YOU.
There are a lot of resources about this and I have linked to some. Please avail yourself.
Thank you.
Another one unsuited for any marriage.
If you don’t have a decent sex life, you won’t have a decent marriage. Different people have different sex drives. Hopefully, you marry someone close to your own.
Someone who is in touch w reality!
As a woman in a sexless marriage with a man, who is on his second sexless marriage, oh my god, thank you. There is literally no narrative for this except shame, and I’m so tired.
I don't believe in divorce, but I'm a guy and therefore absolutely believe that marriage is there for procreation and love, and that an integral part of that is sex.
I'd like to say if I had a partner who would withhold sex I'd endure and be indifferent, but I'd be lying. Likely I'd have an affair.
Hmm this is a really interesting post, and a thought-provoking essay. It's made me question, think and ponder about the nature of marriage, of men and women and how things should go in a marriage. Thanks for this. I really appreciate your excellent writing and your perspective on these things.
It's also given me ideas for a few of my stories on my substack and how to approach the idea of affairs, and the relationship between men and women. I've hesitated before about approaching this particular topic, but now think I absolutely must do so again (I've written one story years ago to this affect), I think I'll try again and approach it again in as nuanced a manner as possible.
I can't wait to read your other essays madame.
Having an affair is a sucky solution, because then you are just USING someone’s body and then dumping them. All while promising you love them, you’re going to leave your wife, blahblahblahblahblah.
True, this is why I’m disinclined from it. That said there is something to be said about caring for your partner in the proper manner.
Sometimes it the husband. They are all into until they get ya hooked, and then out of no where… they cut you off. And I don’t mean for a couple of weeks. And if you say anything about they ask you to get that crap of your mind, accuse you of having a wondering mind.
Yes, some women actually want the sex. Desire the sex, and get gaslit, and told no.
I think they call it Madonna syndrome?
That’s one of the reasons. Then there’s “hyperreligious upbringing,” “sexually molested as a child,” and “avoidant attachment.”
Whatever you do don’t “outsource”. It’s basically just avoiding the problem and it WILL make it worse.
Get couples therapy and make sure before hand that the therapist is one who wants to keep you together not just “give permission” for you to divorce.
Failing that, divorce.
Hate to say it, but yeah.